Personal as in my own. As to putting it on the line, the idea was to cut off the tip first, making it a cheap REM like device.Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
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Personal as in my own. As to putting it on the line, the idea was to cut off the tip first, making it a cheap REM like device.
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Understand. There is a pervasive thought that is being trained, that there are personal line arrows and permanent line arrows, and we should be able to tell the difference. I contend in a slit out/lights out, there is no distinction between personal and permanent. I am not doubting you,but as I have seen discussed on other forums, there is some confusion here.
I am not sure how much of the tip you are cutting off-10%, 25%, 50%..... To make it a REM I am sure a significant amount has to be cut off. My only concern is a very small amount if cut off (even 25%) you still have the slopes of the line arrow,that when someone is stressed, rushed, in an emergency may note that it isn't round, it isn't rectangular, so it must be a line arrow pointing in > this direction.
Last edited by Kelly Jessop; 06-01-2015 at 12:20 PM.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
REM wasn't even a good band.
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
The Go Sidemount shop has them but the shipping fees are quite expensive. The UTD store carries them too, but it appears they are currently out of stock.
As I don't really dive in Mx I can say that I've never come across one in a cave. However, everyone knows that the "long" side is the arrow to the owner. If everybody is using the same convention, it almost defeats the purpose. My cookies are "gendered" in that one side is "MY" way out....but it's unique to me. REMs aren't unique at all in their convention....so they mean technically the same as an arrow. However, I guess if the idea was "when you hit an REM....ignore it as it could be wrong" then you'd be safer. It'd still put quite a bit of doubt in my mind when I was exiting in no viz and came across someone else's REM that was pointing the other way.
As far as not getting their usefulness (I know that wasn't directed at me personally)....I really do, kinda. I understand their goal and purpose but don't believe them to be unique in their ability to convey any message. I don't know if this would divert the current thread, but I'd love to hear a scenario that a cookie/arrow combo couldn't fix that would require an REM....or a situation where an REM would be notably more useful. A few ideas were brought up in another forum but none sold me on the idea.
I understand. Basically my opinion is that in true zero vis, any marker that can not be confirmed to be your own (through tactile feedback) should be dubious, since it is impossible to visually verify it.
This would include all system markers at T's, the 100' arrows in the Florida tourist caves or the permanently installed jump markers.
I can see that the remaining shape of the arrow may a problem for some, so how about this? Flat or round side points to the exit,users choice. Needless to say these would need additional individualization to be able to verify them, like the two holes this one has.I am not sure how much of the tip you are cutting off-10%, 25%, 50%..... To make it a REM I am sure a significant amount has to be cut off. My only concern is a very small amount if cut off (even 25%) you still have to slopes of the line arrow,that when some is stressed, rushed in an emergency may note that it isn't round, it isn't rectangular, so it must be a line arrow pointing in > this direction.
Dagnabbit, Oliver....if you don't quit telling everybody what I do to my cookies and arrows, we're gonna have some issues!! I want to be unique at least a little bit!
Jokes aside, I have flattened the tips of my arrows and the "backs" of my cookies for making my cookies kinda-REMs and personally identifying both cookies and arrows. I really like my system.
to me, there doesn't seem to be a need for any of this. if you're really confused when you start passing opposing arrows, put a cookie on the outbound side of them
So, you are guys are essentially making REMs...be it your own design...but don't see a value in REMs? Is it because they weren't thought up and produced in the centre of the universe? And while you guys don't use them, you know the use and meaning of them. What confusion has that caused? They seem like a simple solution to me. Use them, don't use them, it's your choice. As long as the system you use gets everyone out of the cave safely. Just as I don't think Forrest mounted a crusade to make sure everyone used his arrows, I don't think Bil Phillips is planning a jihad to ensure the use of the REMs.
Cutting the tips off of cookies and arrows is not unique. I've seen it quite a bit. While I don't think a blunt tipped arrow would solve any confusion, I've seen cookies cut with an angle that could be used exactly like a REM.
All my cookies are distinctively marked by me to:
a) enable me to recognize them as mine in No Viz
b) enable me to identify direction to my exit
I won't write exactly what I do here as otherwise there is the chance of too many people copying it and that might defeat the purpose soon, but a cookie can easily be transformeds into a personal REM..
To me it always made sense to incorporate direction into my personal marker to begin with
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