Survey question rebreathers

[CCRMichael]

And of course if an OC Team of two was diving thirds and one diver had a catastrophic failure on of them getting stuck in a restriction would not pose an issue

Seriously why does he think a restriction only applies in CCR cave diving. I was talking about minimums. A dive with restrictions small enough where you have the potential to get stuck for a lengthy period of time would warrant the need to carry more than the minimum not to change the standard minimum. It also might mean you need different gear for that dive such as a SM CCR.

Plus he was using that to bash team bailout. In a team of 3 the out of gas diver goes in the middle so most likely even if he was stuck he could be handed gas from either side.

Might as well say carrying 10 times the amount of bail out is only enough until you are stuck in a restriction for 10 hours and run out of gas. Obviously there is always a possibility of more going wrong than the diver can handle.


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[Kelly Jessop]

I think it is funny how many people who sidemount say they would just hand off a tank to their buddy if needed but I would be a certain amount of these people have never even tried it.

Who? When? I think this notion as being a possible means to handle an emergency died a long time ago.

[nakatomi]

Who? When? I think this notion as being a possible means to handle an emergency died a long time ago.

This is actively taught in sidemount training by a group of instructors in Europe, most notably in Germany and Spain (by a group of German instructors).
A while back I opened a thread on the subject. One agency called Inner Space Explorers (a GUE spinoff) bases their training on it.

Basically they dive aluminum 80's only, with all tanks configured alike. Standard valves, 40" regulator hose, SPG.
Now come an emergency, they donate the 40" hose they are breathing, clip off the other side for their own use, and ride the OOA diver piggy back out of the cave.

Since piggy back will not work in restrictions, they are taught (as a part of their sidemount class) to swap tanks.

Some of people who were trained that way buddy up with backmount divers in the caves and their emergency strategy is to donate a tank to the OOA backmount diver, should he need gas with restrictions ahead.

People here in Germany have told me I'm doing it completely wrong for diving a longhose in sidemount and for using steel tanks, since those cannot be swapped as their diving gurus told them was the way to do it.

Oh BTW, another part of this whole process is the sidemount rig these people use. Their system consists of at least two backplates of variable material to provide weight (obviously to counter the aluminum tanks), plus a standard single tank wing sandwiched in between the backplates.

This type of rig is now one of the most popular sidemount cave rigs in Europe. It is called "Toddy style" after the inventor Torsten (Toddy) Wälde who is the instructor who came up with this entire philosophy (sandwiched rig and tank swapping).

So it seems we now have the Florida style sidemount diving (steel tanks, sidemount rigs with a lot of lift, longhose), the Mexican style (Razor and the various clones, SMS50, LT and such) and the German/European "Toddy" style (sandwiched wing w. backplates, aluminum tanks and short hoses).

[cerich]

I don't think a restriction is only a concern with ccr. Let's look at this for a second, a OC diver carries an extra 1/3 for an emergency, either theirs or somebody in the team. In a restriction, they have that emergency 1/3 available to them on them. In a team bailout, that isn't the case and it will reduce options considerably. The idea of the diver stuck in a restriction as being able to be handed gas by the other diver is somewhat naive, in fact I would state based on my experience of restrictions that it's unlikely to happen in most cases (YMMV of course, but the restrictions that grab folks and don't let go also will limit movement, even to carried gas)

I am not so much anti team bailout as I am anti team bailout being taught or used as "safe". It is not, it adds additional variables that even the most experienced and disciplined team will have great difficulty getting it to "work" in a real emergency. Team bailout is a compromise on the fact that conservative gas management would have ccr divers carry enough gas that many of the "advantages" of ccr are nullified. To fully enjoy the freedom of ccr diving to extend your depth and/or penetrations/and/or time without the penalty of massive amounts of bailout oc gas the ccr diver should be more aware that analogous to climbing, ccr no bailout, inadequate bailout gas is the equivalent of solo. CCR with sufficient bailout is using pitons and ropes and team bailout is using pitons every 100 ft or so...if you are lucky it will save you, most of the time it won't.

But people want the freedom the ccr offers, and thus we have team bail out... a subpar solution that likely wont work.

I have seen enough ccr divers and instructors doing dives past 300 and past 4000 feet in the cave with single alm 40's to know that acknowledgment of the issues is a "issue" I am ok with any ccr diver that understands and decides to dive in a unsupported manner (in a "solo" way), we have too many that were taught it's ok to sell them, that shiny expensive machine while telling them they are now pilots.

Seriously why does he think a restriction only applies in CCR cave diving. I was talking about minimums. A dive with restrictions small enough where you have the potential to get stuck for a lengthy period of time would warrant the need to carry more than the minimum not to change the standard minimum. It also might mean you need different gear for that dive such as a SM CCR.

Plus he was using that to bash team bailout. In a team of 3 the out of gas diver goes in the middle so most likely even if he was stuck he could be handed gas from either side.

Might as well say carrying 10 times the amount of bail out is only enough until you are stuck in a restriction for 10 hours and run out of gas. Obviously there is always a possibility of more going wrong than the diver can handle.


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[floridabob]

Im confused: who offered team bailout as a Panacea? Michael's article simply attempted to explain how 2x related to thirds.

In OC if there is an out of air situation there is no reserve left. Duh. I know we all know this and yet I read the above response and wonder where the "third for emergencies" is now...if you are sharing gas, its gone. Restrictions would suck in long hose sharing or tank passing. No question. If the emergency occurs in the restriction then some tight rope walking will ensue...OC or CCR. Team bailout or not.

I'm sure I am missing something here but it eludes me. Three scenarios: Before, during, after a restriction. Then: team bail out or not. I dont see any additional permutations to this. Team bail out (not offered as a solution by most) means you'd have gas on you to get through the restriction (assuming 1.5x rule per diver) and then later gas would need to be passed or long hose shared between team members--assuming the restriction is at the max point of penetration AND thats were the Out Of Air situation occurs.

So, what did I miss? Except Alpinist which we dont even want to discuss here.

[CCRMichael]

I don't think a restriction is only a concern with ccr. Let's look at this for a second, a OC diver carries an extra 1/3 for an emergency, either theirs or somebody in the team. In a restriction, they have that emergency 1/3 available to them on them. In a team bailout, that isn't the case and it will reduce options considerably. The idea of the diver stuck in a restriction as being able to be handed gas by the other diver is somewhat naive, in fact I would state based on my experience of restrictions that it's unlikely to happen in most cases (YMMV of course, but the restrictions that grab folks and don't let go also will limit movement, even to carried gas)

I am not so much anti team bailout as I am anti team bailout being taught or used as "safe". It is not, it adds additional variables that even the most experienced and disciplined team will have great difficulty getting it to "work" in a real emergency. Team bailout is a compromise on the fact that conservative gas management would have ccr divers carry enough gas that many of the "advantages" of ccr are nullified. To fully enjoy the freedom of ccr diving to extend your depth and/or penetrations/and/or time without the penalty of massive amounts of bailout oc gas the ccr diver should be more aware that analogous to climbing, ccr no bailout, inadequate bailout gas is the equivalent of solo. CCR with sufficient bailout is using pitons and ropes and team bailout is using pitons every 100 ft or so...if you are lucky it will save you, most of the time it won't.

But people want the freedom the ccr offers, and thus we have team bail out... a subpar solution that likely wont work.

I have seen enough ccr divers and instructors doing dives past 300 and past 4000 feet in the cave with single alm 40's to know that acknowledgment of the issues is a "issue" I am ok with any ccr diver that understands and decides to dive in a unsupported manner (in a "solo" way), we have too many that were taught it's ok to sell them, that shiny expensive machine while telling them they are now pilots.

I am perfectly fine if you don't like team bailout. It is your reasoning of why not that bothers me. Team bailout does not mean that a diver is not carrying any OC bailout on himself just that he might not have all that he needs to reach the exit. So should he find himself in a situation where he is in a restriction and needs to bail out he can. Then after the restriction he can continue the team bail out protocols. Just as an OC diver might need to do a valve shutdown in a restriction, use his reserve gas to navigate the restriction and since he used up his "bailout" or 1/3 reserve in the restriction he might need to rely on his team mates to get all the way out.



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[Bobby]

I know you are asking Chris however here is my issue with Team BO and the scenario that you presented. It is my opinion and how I dive. Diving to 1/3's is the least conservative. Diving to thirds when having to negotiate a restriction that will take more time to navigate is not an option for me. When on OC I never put myself in a situation that I may need to rely on a buddies gas supply to exit. I am more conservative with gas and diving in general when diving with a buddy because regardless of how much I know or trust them I also know that people react differently on different days. When I am diving solo it is on me to react properly if I get myself in a pickle and to have enough gas to react if someone else in the cave needs my assistance. When diving with a teammate I pad my reserves to allow for the added complexity.

The explanation of how I approach OC diving should make it clear why CCR team BO is not an option for me. I will not go into a dive plan knowingly carrying less gas than what I would need to exit from a cave or depth.

For those that say that it is not manageable to carry that much gas, I say it is a matter of experience and working on your configuration. I have done swimming dives with two 108's, 4 AL 80's, & 45's on the CCR. My rig is set up to add or subtract cylinders to match the dive and can go from 45's to 108's for the BO and use 20's or 45's for the CCR main cylinders without adjustment. It did take a few years of experience and a lot of adjusting to get it to this point however it can be done. If carrying enough BO to get ones self out and deal with SHF moments is too task loading then maybe the diver needs to slow down and gain more experience before they push that far.

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[floridabob]

For those that say that it is not manageable to carry that much gas, I say it is a matter of experience and working on your configuration. I have done swimming dives with two 108's, 4 AL 80's, & 45's on the CCR. My rig is set up to add or subtract cylinders to match the dive and can go from 45's to 108's for the BO and use 20's or 45's for the CCR main cylinders without adjustment. It did take a few years of experience and a lot of adjusting to get it to this point however it can be done. If carrying enough BO to get ones self out and deal with SHF moments is too task loading then maybe the diver needs to slow down and gain more experience before they push that far.

Im thinking the above is just more a generic statement than specific to what someone in this thread has said as I dont think that has been expressed as a concern. I will say that there are times a set up dive make sense. Your example above would be one, for sure. That's a lot of gas to carry. I can assume you either dropped some for deco and carried some or dropped it all along the way. I, too, have carried 45s on the breather and 4/5 additional bottles. But they were dropped along the way. As in a deep wreck, for instance.

Swimming far with all the described bottles would be sub-optimal. And not very efficient, either. Which was part of what was in this thread: the tipping point between bringing bailout gas and that gas interfering with the planned dive. Gotta have it but when do you plan to set the dive up versus carry it all?

And again, I am not a team bail out kinda guy.

I will offer this as an additional discussion point: why bring a bunch of 80s versus some LP steels and then the additional gas in 80s to drop? If you need 375 CF of gas it seems better to bring 108s and one 80 versus 5 80s.

[cerich]

What % of the time in a cave when one team member is having an emergency are other members of the team also going to have one? Everybody in OC carries enough gas to get themselves out in an emergency...if they manage to keep their RMV reasonable (and if they are not trapped/entangled in something, or simply lost)....

Certainly as long as they can stay on the loop, being trapped in CC gives the diver more time to react, however we are talking bailout, so... not so much.

Fully aware that team bailout doesn't mean each diver isn't carrying any gas. Your post actually supports my analogy. "any OC bailout on himself just that he might not have all that he needs to reach the exit.", like using a piton every 100 ft. You are betting if you fall it will be in the first bit, not the last bit. That is gambling and team bail out is often presented as "safe, reasonable". It is not. It may be acceptable if you have a fairly high risk tolerance, but it is far from safe. (we also frequently gamble the same on OC on 1/3rds, if something happens at max depth, max penetration, you are likely screwed)

Plus, let's be frank. Recently I saw a picture of some divers at the Cayman event, they were doing a CCR dive from Sunset to Cobalt coast I believe.(or vice versa) They did that dive with fairly good depth(I seem to recall there were depths in the 200-300 range). I don't remember the details but is was a fairly long dive (3 hours+) Regardless, the divers in the picture had alm 40's for bailout. I don't imagine the 40's were oxygen...but hey crazier things have been know to happen. Regardless, there is no possible way that a diver that had to come off the loop would be able employ team bailout and surface without being badly bent at best, and that's if there was in fact enough team bailout gas to get them there with a deco schedule, which I doubt.Which begs the questions, how big a "team" can be before it is now a gaggle. Nothing against a gaggle but expecting them to work together to execute (interesting word that) a rescue using team bailout is a reach..

Again, it's fine by me if the diver KNOWS the reality and is OK with it. That is not the case far too often. Contrary to your assertion, I don't "don't like team bailout", it's a tool in the box, but people use it thinking it is a MUCH better tool than it is...or use it to assert they had a reasonable gas management plan...when team bailout is really not reasonable in many/most cases. It may be acceptable;e to the participants. There is a difference. The danger is that too many individuals that don't know better buy into it because their instructors have...without thinking it through.

We should be more honest in our community to the risks associated.

I am perfectly fine if you don't like team bailout. It is your reasoning of why not that bothers me. Team bailout does not mean that a diver is not carrying any OC bailout on himself just that he might not have all that he needs to reach the exit. So should he find himself in a situation where he is in a restriction and needs to bail out he can. Then after the restriction he can continue the team bail out protocols. Just as an OC diver might need to do a valve shutdown in a restriction, use his reserve gas to navigate the restriction and since he used up his "bailout" or 1/3 reserve in the restriction he might need to rely on his team mates to get all the way out.



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[CCRMichael]

Plus, let's be frank. Recently I saw a picture of some divers at the Cayman event, they were doing a CCR dive from Sunset to Cobalt coast I believe.(or vice versa) They did that dive with fairly good depth(I seem to recall there were depths in the 200-300 range). I don't remember the details but is was a fairly long dive (3 hours+) Regardless, the divers in the picture had alm 40's for bailout. I don't imagine the 40's were oxygen...but hey crazier things have been know to happen. Regardless, there is no possible way that a diver that had to come off the loop would be able employ team bailout and surface without being badly bent at best, and that's if there was in fact enough team bailout gas to get them there with a deco schedule, which I doubt.Which begs the questions, how big a "team" can be before it is now a gaggle. Nothing against a gaggle but expecting them to work together to execute (interesting word that) a rescue using team bailout is a reach..

Ok I was on that specific dive so I can speak about that. You are correct the divers carrying AL40s were not following good team bailout protocols. Maybe they could argue that the group of 10 divers or whatever was all part of the team but THAT is not safe practices nor is it what is taught by any agency that teaches team bailout.

I was using team bailout on that dive. I was diving with 2 buddies in a team of 3 we each had 2 al80s. We were counting on team bailout in a rough situation yet we were carrying twice as much bailout as some of the other divers. So lets compare apples to apples I am talking about team bailout in the way it is taught by agencies not people carry 1 or 2 al 40s and throw out the term team bailout as a rationalization.

Just as an intersting side note one of the trimix divers on that dive ended up bailing out (His own idiotic dive planning was the root cause) he went through both his 63s, his buddies al 40 and then I swapped him and gave him one of my 80s and he used almost all of that. The reason I had to give him mine was one of his bail out regs was not functioning and that is why he couldn't use one of his bailout tanks. So he was practicing "team bailout" in an unsafe way, His buddy did not have sufficient gas and he did not even check his regs.

I on the other hand was with 2 divers I completely trust. I know what gas they had, how much and what it was. I watched them verify function of their regs in and out of the water. There is a big difference between the 2 examples. To lump them both into one group and call it "divers using team bailout" is a little unfair but if they are what you are talking about then I agree.