Cave Access Under Assault

[lv2dive]

How we can expect this father to understand anything that approaches common sense? His son has been found guilty of no less than three separate SIGNIFICANT crimes and done jail time for at least one of them, and he is STILL faulting the CAVE or the fact that no one was checking c-cards. Some people are always going to blame "the system" or someone else, and not accept personal responsibility, at least it is clear where Spivey got it from.

[Kelly Jessop]

. Let me say cave diving is considered by most cave divers to be THE most dangerous sport on our planet. .

For the 1% that do exploration then the statement is prudent,but for the 99% of the rest of the community,if trained,it isn't. We really need to get rid of this image of cave diving being the most dangerous sport,and call it an ecotourism,because this negative connotation of the sport has a negative perception by the public,and does effect our access. We are an ecotourism activity because we follow a trail that has been previously set up by others,for the chance to experience this environment. Now,if untrained,yeah this can be a dangerous activity,heck even the clueless using a kayak can cause a drowning. I appreciate your comments,and understanding where you are going with it,but we really need to make the activity more mainstream.

[lv2dive]

Thanks Kelly. Concur.

For the 1% that do exploration then the statement is prudent,but for the 99% of the rest of the community,if trained,it isn't. We really need to get rid of this image of cave diving being the most dangerous sport,and call it an ecotourism,because this negative connotation of the sport has a negative perception by the public,and does effect our access. We are an ecotourism activity because we follow a trail that has been previously set up by others,for the chance to experience this environment. Now,if untrained,yeah this can be a dangerous activity,heck even the clueless using a kayak can cause a drowning. I appreciate your comments,and understanding where you are going with it,but we really need to make the activity more mainstream.

[Omisson]

The article itself didnt piss me off. I guess my annoyed response came off wrong. The reported did a great job. Reading the stupidity of the grandfather in the article pissed me off.


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Agreed!

Though the ignorance of the grandfather can be excused as he lost two loved ones.

The problem is- people always want to place blame somewhere- and never with themselves.

The rock climbing analogy was great- when a Darwinian poster boy dies climbing above his certification/training no one calls for the closure of the mountain.

Also- too many in my profession are trolls looking for a deep pocket to extract $$$ and place blame everywhere but the true culprit - the but for cause- and until we have tort reform that penalizes frivolous law suits awarding costs to the defendants wrongfully sued- the personal injury/trial lawyers will continue to cause problems. Whether that becomes park closures or increased fees for park use or liability insurance rate hikes for instructors- everyone pays.

The problem is - the only solution is usually more "policing" by the government- not good for those of us who respect the Constitution and love Liberty.

The CDS and NACD. Must remain in dialogue with elected and parks officials and develop better self policing policy to prevent government intrusion- AND hire top end attorneys to push back when and if frivolous law suits commence- they must also pressure insurance carriers not to settle above nuisance value on any case that is without merit.

[Omisson]

For the 1% that do exploration then the statement is prudent,but for the 99% of the rest of the community,if trained,it isn't. We really need to get rid of this image of cave diving being the most dangerous sport,and call it an ecotourism,because this negative connotation of the sport has a negative perception by the public,and does effect our access. We are an ecotourism activity because we follow a trail that has been previously set up by others,for the chance to experience this environment. Now,if untrained,yeah this can be a dangerous activity,heck even the clueless using a kayak can cause a drowning. I appreciate your comments,and understanding where you are going with it,but we really need to make the activity more mainstream.

Kelly,

While I understand the sentiment I disagree.

Scuba diving is a hazardous activity.

Technical diving (which Cave diving certainly is) is an ultra-hazardous activity (from a legal perspective).

In a way that is a legal shield that raises the bar for claimants hurt in the sport.

If you argue that it is not ultra-hazardous you invite a lower standard in Court- I assure you- you DO NOT WANT to do that.

As an "advanced technical diving rating" full cave should be considered what it is, an ultra-hazardous form of scuba diving, requiring rigorous training and technical competence.

That said, Full Cave diving can be performed in relative safety when the rules are strictly adhered to by properly trained and equipped divers with maturity, sound judgment and when in (relatively) good health.

There may come a day that the government may start to invade the certification process claiming a public safety - regulatory role. The best way to forestall that is vigilance on the part of the Cave Diving community's organizations (like CDS and NACD) who must act as spokesman, ombudsman and advocate to the government.

Just my 2 cents...

Dan-O

[Tegg]

Kelly, I'd even venture to say that most exploration diving is done more safely than to be worth calling the "most dangerous sport" on the planet... at least more safely than a lot of other "outdoor adventure sports".

I can rattle off a whole list of activities that are inherently MORE dangerous than cave diving just based on "backups and failsafes" alone...

Skydiving
Base jumping
freehand rock climbing
snowboarding
underwater basket weaving

[Tegg]

There may come a day that the government may start to invade the certification process claiming a public safety - regulatory role. The best way to forestall that is vigilance on the part of the Cave Diving community's organizations (like CDS and NACD) who must act as spokesman, ombudsman and advocate to the government.

Just my 2 cents...

Dan-O

Sadly... I don't think the NACD or the CDS are bothering themselves with ANY efforts to protect cave diving access. They are to busy fighting amongst themselves and focused on making new training books...

I have not seen any public statements of the BoD for either cave diving organization talking about their efforts to get involved with the Eagles Nest incident and speak with the same people that the father is speaking to in order to offer education and another viewpoint. I think both organizations are on their way out as useful voices for cave divers. Hopefully we can all piece something together and form a real organization who is truly there to support us in times like this.

[tflaris]

Joe
The NSS-CDS Chairman and the board have been putting together a response to this article. It should be submitted shortly.

TF


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[Tegg]

Joe
The NSS-CDS Chairman and the board have been putting together a response to this article. It should be submitted shortly.

TF


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What does that matter? Posts on a website mean nothing.

Who has picked up the phone? Who has directly contacted the representatives and names listed? Who has contacted the father as a representative of the CDS and attempted to educate him and work with him to "find an alternate path" to his plan?

Meaningless posts to the cave community don't get any review with those who make the rules...

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly,

While I understand the sentiment I disagree.

Scuba diving is a hazardous activity.

Technical diving (which Cave diving certainly is) is an ultra-hazardous activity (from a legal perspective).

In a way that is a legal shield that raises the bar for claimants hurt in the sport.

If you argue that it is not ultra-hazardous you invite a lower standard in Court- I assure you- you DO NOT WANT to do that.

As an "advanced technical diving rating" full cave should be considered what it is, an ultra-hazardous form of scuba diving, requiring rigorous training and technical competence.

That said, Full Cave diving can be performed in relative safety when the rules are strictly adhered to by properly trained and equipped divers with maturity, sound judgment and when in (relatively) good health.

There may come a day that the government may start to invade the certification process claiming a public safety - regulatory role. The best way to forestall that is vigilance on the part of the Cave Diving community's organizations (like CDS and NACD) who must act as spokesman, ombudsman and advocate to the government.

Just my 2 cents...

Dan-O

I defer to your legal expertise and appreciate this insight. From a landowner and local resident,those we depend on getting access from,having the activity appear as ultra hazardous and dangerous,doesn't make it conducive to granting/maintaining access. There have been a couple sites that I have tried to get open,and one of the first things out of the landowner's mouth was how dangerous it was. I would explain the safety record,the training,and yes explain it is a form of ecotourism;but wouldn't say it is an ultra hazardous activity.