Statement from the Chairman regarding the Eagles Nest incident.

[Tegg]

Exactly what I alluded to,but without naming names.

From what I heard... (since this happened in 1997) - Tyler was charged with Simple Battery on Vernon Murchison and from what I heard the prosecutor said it a "waste of tax payers money" to even think of prosecuting.

True?

[Kelly Jessop]

From what I heard... (since this happened in 1997) - Tyler was charged with Simple Battery on Vernon Murchison and from what I heard the prosecutor said it a "waste of tax payers money" to even think of prosecuting.

True?

I can't recall if there was a fine levied,but it was ridiculous for him to be charged with this. It did propel Tyler into cave diving history,too bad people won't remember him as being one of these most active cave instructors in the 90s.

[sskasser]

I think we're pretty much in agreement, Kelly. We have slightly different approaches, but the same goals. I appreciate all that you do and have done, and all of the experience that stands behind your words. I have a huge amount of respect not only for what you do, but for how you do it.

I get very antsy any time people start trying to legislate personal activities. Heck, I will even argue in favor of allowing men to choose to wear pants around their knees with their boxers showing. Why, because I put banning that in the same category as banning women from showing their faces (aka requiring hijabs). It's a dearly held personal opinion regarding personal choices in both cases. Who's opinion counts more?

I'll be the first to admit that I may overlean in the direction of personal freedom, because seeing the teetotter swing the other way scares the hell out of me.

And yes, absolutely, we, you and I, on a personal level, DO have a moral responsibility to educate and discuss the dangers with people every time the opportunity arises. I agree, 100%. Part of the battle we fight is that Darwin doesn't work fast enough to make the negative consequences seem real. In this case, these guys had done many dives without negative consequence, it seems. It's an uphill battle, but a worthy one. The cave (mountain/highway/butter knife) can try many times to kill you and fail. It only needs to succeed once to be a success. The diver, on the other hand, only gets to fail once.

Thank you for all you do.

History shows very close to being outlawed,and it wasn't until some organization and rules were established before we saved it. Hence,if some people hadn't stepped forward,and probably got comments like,"you can't tell me what I can and can't do",then we would be doing sneak diving everywhere,under the threat of performing a crime.

I appreciate what you are saying Shirley.

The question I ask,do we have a moral responsibility to try and intervene in some form,or let them do what they want because it is their God-given right?

Using your analogy of drinking and driving. If I am somewhere and I see a friend trying to leave and they are obviously drunk,should I a) try to stop them b) get out of the way and let them go? Our media has defined that with public service ads,that say don't let friends drive drunk,and give you the tacit right to take their keys away.

This analogy has a poor match up to cave diving accidents,but in the same light,if I see someone that is about to perform a dive that they don't have training for,I will perform some action,if not to just inform them of the dangers. This is where I feel I have the moral responsibility,mainly because if they die,I can say I didn't just hide behind my tailgate and just ignore things.

I think the dry caving community does it the best. #1,they don't tell noncavers where are the sites #2 if someone is accessing a site and they aren't trained,they can join the grotto,and get mentored #3 have great landowner relations,because the landowner has reduced fear of liability because they always police the site.

[Ken Hill]

Kelly,

The Gilchrist County Judge reviewed the incident at the initial appearance and dismissed the charges with the statement "He (Tyler) did the equivalent of pushing someone out of the way of a moving train!." The complaint was filed by a female "Y" instructor that was subsequently stripped of her teaching credentials because of the incident.

I think every cave diver has an obligation to say something to prevent a what's likely to be a diving death. In the case of a CDS member diving a CDS owned site there probably is a duty to warn the trespasser. If you are a dive professional, at any level, covered by liability insurance you are probably obligated to say or do something.

[a64pilot]

I agree 100% with the statement, we really do have a duty (in my opinion) to try to stop people from doing stupid things, including driving too fast etc.
Not physically stop them of course, but to try to reason with them about possible consequences, if they aren't receptive, then you tried, that's all you can do.

[PsychDiver]

I have yet to meet the arrogant idiot engaged in self-destructive behavior who responds with a "gee thanks, never occurred to me I might hurt myself" when intervened with. I try to take care of my family; I have a few close friends with whom we have mutual permission to call each other on our BS (since self-deception is difficult to detect in one's self); the stranger on a Hellbound train there's not much you can do for. I've hung on my deco stop in the Devil's Eye keeping an eye on a diver in a single tank who was futzing around with his computer in the cavern chamber below the Eye but before the crack that goes down to where the gold line starts now. I didn't know if he was cavern certified or what he was doing. I did not go down and scold him or give advice, just kept an eye out for trouble. If he'd gotten in to obvious difficulty I'd have rendered assistance; if he'd decided to proceed down in to the cave I don't know what I'd have done, probably hope he'd make it out alive. Maybe I'm a heartless sociopath, but I think my response is that of a reasonable man, but then maybe I'd get sued for seeing someone doing something stupid and not intervening; lawsuits are not always about reason.

[Kelly Jessop]

I agree 100% with the statement, we really do have a duty (in my opinion) to try to stop people from doing stupid things, including driving too fast etc.
Not physically stop them of course, but to try to reason with them about possible consequences, if they aren't receptive, then you tried, that's all you can do.

Thanks,that is what I mean.

I was hoping this thread could stretch out to how,and what others have done. There are a lot of people who aren't aware that grabbing an OW diver with a light in the cave at Ginnie,could result in assault charges. What can we do,and perhaps we all can learn from experiences of others.

[Jim Wyatt]

Several years ago I saw two open water divers entering Devil's Ear -- they each had lights and were in the gallery beyond the daylight zone. The type lights they had suggested to me the divers were not cavern trained, POS lights...I grabbed one of the divers arms to look at his wristband to see his certification level. He moved away from me quickly and exited. I was unable to see his wristband.

The two divers were diving with GSO rental AL80's...I recorded the numbers & later that day reported the numbers to Connie LoRe at the office. She informed me that one diver reported the incident to her and further claimed I made him hit his head on the cave wall and was almost ready to file a complaint against me for battery. Connie calmed them down and sent them on their way.

What will I do next time considering he likelihood that no good deed goes unpunished?

[sskasser]

I have yet to meet the arrogant idiot engaged in self-destructive behavior who responds with a "gee thanks, never occurred to me I might hurt myself" when intervened with. ....

Actually, I have had a couple of great experiences in this area. One time really stands out. I overheard a couple of guys talking about doing the Catfish to Manatee run one day and could tell at least was not certified for it. I struck up a conversation. It ended with them doing a fun OW dive and signing up for a cavern class. And yes, they did say "Thanks!" Actually, they've said it several times since then. It can happen.

[kwinter]

Just adding food for thought.

What do you do?

1. You are preparing to dive and see a father and son preparing to dive with some appropriate gear, but you have doubts that they are qualified to make the dive.

2. You are preparing to dive and see a guy all geared up and about to enter the water, but obviously drunk or impaired.

Why should there be a difference? Yet most of the folks I asked had no problem interceding for case #2, but not so much for case #1.

Now ask yourself if it makes any difference if you are diving on private property or public land.

There are no right answers here. Just introspection.


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