Statement from the Chairman regarding the Eagles Nest incident.

[Sly-vester]

http://www.nsscds.org/node/381

Statement from the Chairman of the NSS-CDS regarding the Christmas day incident at Eagles Nest.


Warmest Regards
TJ

[Angry Turtle]

I thought I was going to read something along the lines of "If I had a brother who didn't like to follow the rules, he would look like Darrin"

[nthewater]

Had a thought after reading the link. What if I had been there? What would I have done? What are the possible outcomes?

First, what would I have done? To answer that I think back to what I have done in the past. When I am at a cave system, I don't ask others their cert level. So unless I see something that draws my attention, I pretty much keep to myself. Now, I like to think I would have at least broached the subject of his son. That would have jumped out at me.

So that is where it gets intesting to me. To my knowledge, they broke no law by going in (okay... Maybe the law of good common sense). So lets assume I approach the father and discover the truth. I know I would highly encourage them not to make the dive.
At this point, the father either takes to heart the advice and calls it a day or blows me off.

My hunch.... They would have still entered. I simply say that because human nature is to not like to have people tell us what to do.

Now what are my options? Put my life in jeopardy and follow them in the cave? Try to physically prevent them from entering? Ask who I should call if they die and leave them to their own choices?

Not questioning any of the choices.. Just chewing on the thought and curious what others option/experience have been.


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[Line Squirrel]

I'm not so sure you can "legally" physically prevent someone from doing a dive like this...anybody know one way or the other for certain?

[Kelly Jessop]

Had a thought after reading the link. What if I had been there? What would I have done? What are the possible outcomes?

First, what would I have done? To answer that I think back to what I have done in the past. When I am at a cave system, I don't ask others their cert level. So unless I see something that draws my attention, I pretty much keep to myself. Now, I like to think I would have at least broached the subject of his son. That would have jumped out at me.

So that is where it gets intesting to me. To my knowledge, they broke no law by going in (okay... Maybe the law of good common sense). So lets assume I approach the father and discover the truth. I know I would highly encourage them not to make the dive.
At this point, the father either takes to heart the advice and calls it a day or blows me off.

My hunch.... They would have still entered. I simply say that because human nature is to not like to have people tell us what to do.

Now what are my options? Put my life in jeopardy and follow them in the cave? Try to physically prevent them from entering? Ask who I should call if they die and leave them to their own choices?

Not questioning any of the choices.. Just chewing on the thought and curious what others option/experience have been.


Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

Your bring up some good comments.

There is no law requiring certification to dive,just the thought we can't get an airfill without a card,but the civil disobedient minded person would buy a compressor. But,you more likely wouldn't see someone without a c-card dive off a dive boat,and the owner/operator would make sure of that. We wouldn't expect any different,and it is expected.

When we go to the springs,especially at uncontrolled sites like Eagle's Nest, Little River etc,we see other people diving but rarely say anything about what is going on. Most of us are cautious to intervene when we see something suspicious,and with some past events,if we intervene with physical contact,then you become the criminal. Do we have a moral responsibility to try to intervene? Do we have an obligation to intervene to protect this sport? After the people died at School sink,there was comments made that it was known by someone that they knew what they were doing (eg diving beyond their level) and wasn't surprised that there was a fatality,but nobody ever said we tried to intervene and stop them.

What are somethings that people could do provide an intervention?
At places like Ginnie,easy call the security guard-I 've done it,not ashamed I have done it,and will do it again.
How about state parks? Rangers aren't always available,but smart phones with images of divers and license plates are.
Places mentioned previously that have no over sight are the hardest places-what would you do????

[Sludge]

I guess I'm just old and tired - I no longer try to prevent untrained divers from going into the caves...

[sskasser]

To those of you proposing we stop all divers from doing things we deem unwise, do you also call the highway patrol on every driver you see exceeding the speed limit? On the phone while driving? Driving after a drink? They're not just risking themselves.

I hate what deaths in caves do to access issues. I hate the thought of Big Brother more, though. Address the cave access issues, and leave people to their right to behave in a way that you think is stupid as long as it's not putting you in danger. I have had SEVERAL talks with divers about to do something I didn't think was smart. Sometimes those talks even worked. However, in the end, in the case of an adult, it is their right to do something I don't think is safe for them.

And please, don't use the "a stupid diver in the cave risks the lives of the rescuers." Seriously, our rescue teams are amazing people. They CHOOSE what dives to make to do those rescues, and I grant that they are intelligent enough to decide on what risks they're willing to take at any given time.

What gives us the right to decide that someone isn't able to make a dive (or a climb or a jump or use a butter knife) because we don't think they're doing it the safest way? Allow that logic, and next we have people who say because cave diving (or climbing rocks, etc) is dangerous sounding TO THEM, then WE shouldn't be allowed to do it. Or because I'm overweight, I shouldn't be allowed in a cave. Or any other of a number of reasons.

Where would our sport be without people who did things they weren't trained for?

It sucks when someone dies and it seems so preventable. But let's not kill a fly with a sledgehammer, and end up caving in the skull of the friend the fly is sitting on.

[kensuf]

Does anyone here remember when Tyler Moon was charged with assault for pulling an openwater instructor and her openwater students out of a cave?

[Kelly Jessop]

Does anyone here remember when Tyler Moon was charged with assault for pulling an openwater instructor and her openwater students out of a cave?

Exactly what I alluded to,but without naming names.

[Kelly Jessop]

Where would our sport be without people who did things they weren't trained for?

.

History shows very close to being outlawed,and it wasn't until some organization and rules were established before we saved it. Hence,if some people hadn't stepped forward,and probably got comments like,"you can't tell me what I can and can't do",then we would be doing sneak diving everywhere,under the threat of performing a crime.

I appreciate what you are saying Shirley.

The question I ask,do we have a moral responsibility to try and intervene in some form,or let them do what they want because it is their God-given right?

Using your analogy of drinking and driving. If I am somewhere and I see a friend trying to leave and they are obviously drunk,should I a) try to stop them b) get out of the way and let them go? Our media has defined that with public service ads,that say don't let friends drive drunk,and give you the tacit right to take their keys away.

This analogy has a poor match up to cave diving accidents,but in the same light,if I see someone that is about to perform a dive that they don't have training for,I will perform some action,if not to just inform them of the dangers. This is where I feel I have the moral responsibility,mainly because if they die,I can say I didn't just hide behind my tailgate and just ignore things.

I think the dry caving community does it the best. #1,they don't tell noncavers where are the sites #2 if someone is accessing a site and they aren't trained,they can join the grotto,and get mentored #3 have great landowner relations,because the landowner has reduced fear of liability because they always police the site.