Keep perspective
People please let's just build our case on perspective. How many people have died on Mt. Hood, El Capitain or Mt. McKinley these are all national park service areas they have right idea. If you choose to use the resource you are responsible for your own life.
That's a good perspective, Curt. Anyone can put scuba gear on and go kill themselves the same way that someone can pick up a rucksack and walk into the wilderness or up a mountain with no idea what he is doing. Cave divers, wilderness backpackers and mountaineers have a lot in common. They've dedicated lots of time and money gaining required skills, knowledge and experience. Most people who engage in these activities do so safely. A few are arrogant fools who pay a fool's price. Fortunately, those who don't respect nature are few and far between. Society should not be responsible for lifeguarding people beyond common sense and due care. Public lands should never have access restricted for the enjoyment of the majority because of the stupidity of the few.
Trace Malinowski
"Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux
Erik and fellow divers involved, as a PS Diver in the Pacific Northwest whom has had to make a recovery in front of the family, Thank you for taking the time out of your own Christmas day to bring closure to the family by allowing them to know where their relatives were, as well as to eliminate their uncertainty about the outcome of the situation.
I know that I am a new member of this forum as well as a recent member to the cave diving community. I was just certified not long ago for diving caves and spent 2 of my final dives doing mixed gas dives at eagles nest. To say that it was part of the highlights of my time in Florida is a great understatement. It was an amazing dive location but was also apparent from the moment I dropped through the chimneys, that if taken lightly would have the ability to bite me. If I had not received thorough training pounded into my head to stay on the line and know my gas requirements ...well it is easy for us to see how this tragedy unfolded the other day. "Spivey", allegedly fulfilled the outcome that was told would happen to him if he continued with this reckless behavior. With the addition of his son you could even say it was negligent.
The one thing that has finally ticked me off and sent me over the edge to respond in this public forum is the call for more restriction and rules by some of our own. Chester Spivey Jr. has an emotional reason and lack of understanding of this sport to allow fear to call for restriction. What is the excuse of members of this community? Should we allow fear of what could happen to take away our ability to pursue this passion we all have? I find it hard to believe that anyone involved in this sport has not had to sacrifice and work their butts of to be able to pursue perfection in this sport. To have that then taken by our own from the inside is foolish. We all know that this is very dangerous, (don't let my wife know I admit this) but we calculate this risk. We manage it. We TRAIN so that we do not become another story on this forum to learn from. I truly believe this sport is as little or as much dangerous as WE choose to make it based on our own training, planning/preparation, and the equipment we choose to arm ourselves with. He chose to enter a known cave system that has been deadly without the proper training. He chose to ignore the warnings posted. He even chose to take a child into that environment. I have a certified 14 yr. old daughter and I would never even think of allowing her to enter that water. None of that matters though. It was apparent whether it was the glamor, the adventure, the mystic of diving the caves, he was going to pursue it. You can put a fence up. Stick a gate in front of the trail to the pond. That won't stop stupid people from doing stupid things, and guess what, some of them are going to die. Kelly Jessop and others, I have seen multiple posts on this forum and others recommending more restriction, more regulation, more crap in the way of all of us pursuing our passion. I ask you to stop for a moment and think before you start to sing to the masses about how our world is going to come crashing down( or be taken away) if we don't create more rules, regulation, and restriction.
We need to start to let common sense back into this world. If a private single engine pilot steals a 747 what is going to happen? He might survive 1 landing maybe 5 but the odds are stacked against him. He is going to die but we don't shut down Boeing because he stole one of there jets and killed himself. OK might be a horrible analogy and I am stepping away from this now.
Please think people before we react due to emotion. He died. It sucks. History repeats itself and it will happen again. There is always a steady supply of idiots in this world.
I am not calling for more restriction,but an earnest effort to save this place from closure AGAIN. I remember when this place closed in the later 90's,and remember what it took to get it reopened. Also,I have spent an inordinate amount of time getting places like Jug Hole reopened when it was closed,and Lafayette Blue,so I hope I have a basic understanding of some of the thought processes involved. You are dealing with people that have very small budgets and trying to manage a large tract of land,and having to manage recreation is outside their scope. If there is a problem the easiest way to handle it,is to close it. Note this isn't me or somebody else suggesting more restrictions,regulations etc,this reading the writing on the wall. For a local community that everytime they hear about Eagles Nest it is related to a fatality,now you have a father and son dying there on Christmas day,and get national exposure;so what will the attitude of the community be? Is there any loss to them if this place is gated? What I am suggesting is that we know the measures in place now DON'T work,and we know they don't work because it has been witnessed here on these forums. Hence,do we want someone that is not a cave diver be the person who determines the solution,and the solution is real easy and something we may not like,or have some in the cave diving community take the initiative with property managers,and determine a solution the is a win-win scenario. An example of a possible solution-have a gate far enough away from the site that an OW diver is inhibited from walking back there,but a check in process that insures that the people accessing the property have proper credentials. Realize this is one solution. I know you said you are a new member to cave diving,and congratulations,but realize there is a lot that has to be done to maintain access,and frequently this is done without public notification on these forums. We have had places like Madison and LIttle River with threat of closure in the past,and we stepped forward and addressed the issues and kept the access. Eagles Nest has had a volatile past,and in the eye of the locals it is a pain in the ***,therefore if we want to keep it we need to address the problems.Originally Posted by jdailey777
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
For the record; it's not national. I'm reading and posting from Norway. Going to Florida in february, so really hope they don't close down EN or any other cave for that matter because of one individuals stupidity.
Bjørn
Maybe not international,but it was definitely national. It went beyond the local media in that Tampa/St Pete region,but was picked up by NBC and ABC. When I check Yahoo news,it was top story on the front page. In my recollection,I don't recall a diving accident involving a cave being seen so widely. The perfect storm was that it was a family and at Christmas time.
Add Associated Press http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
Unfortunately we see so many times where we pay for the behavior of the few. Case in point-two guys access School sink under false pretenses and die. The result is the CDS is in a lawsuit that effects their existance. There are signs all over Ginnie Springs to not jump off the platform. There have muliple incidents of locals jumping off and breaking their neck,then suing Ginnie Springs,and we pay for their higher insurance premium with higher access fees.I'm reading and posting from Norway. Going to Florida in february, so really hope they don't close down EN or any other cave for that matter because of one individuals stupidity.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
Let's point out that this is not appropriate for most new cave divers (in my opinion none.)
From Cave Atlas:
"The NACD and NSS-CDS recommends that you have the following MINIMUM qualifications to dive:
Full Cave Certification
Trimix certification
Appropriate experience with deep cave dives."
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Cave Mann
My apologies for not being clear. My point was (supposed to be) that this tragedy has travelled well past US borders. Not in the form of traditional mass media, newspaper etc.. but people are sharing it on FB and forums everywhere. Like you point out; a family dying in a cave on christmas day while trying out christmas presents is pretty ugly. Add to that they they were braking pretty much every rule there is for cave diving and you have something that attracts attention. We had our biggest cave (Plura) closed down in 2006 after a horrible accident, so I know exactly what you are talking about. Lets hope EN stays open for those qualified to dive there, and that this tragedy has some sort of preventive effect on people that was considering doing the same thing.
Bjørn
In response to one of the first replies on this thread, wondering why cave diving, and the deaths that sometime occur, are treated so differntley than other "high risk" sports/activities.
I've always said that cave divers are a very different type of human being, because they have the exact opposite response to potentially fearful/dangerous situations than the general human population.....you can substitute the suffix "philia" for the prefix "phobia" to the following...and you get a cave diver's mind set.
Claustrophobia (fear of tight enclosed spaces)
Nyctophobia (fear of the dark)
Hydrophobia (fear of water)
These are powerful, ingrained fears that a huge proportion of the general public exhibit....it will never change.....human nature.
You'll also never change the ability to fail to accept responsibility for your actions, and to attempt to blame others for your own (or relative's) stupidity
I think you can throw "agoraphobia" (fear of the unknown? I believe...correction appreciated, didn't Google it) to the mix....
These terms are how I always explain the cave diving mentality and the draw for those that do it.....although I do explain that we are (almost) never in the dark, lol!
One small correction. Fear of water is aquaphobia. Hydrophobia is rabies.
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