Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[cerich]

awww, i feel loved... lol.

[Jont]

awww, i feel loved... lol.

Chris,

Is this something that is actually being considered seriously?

Jon

[Jont]

If anything they need to expand and harmonize the "training" aspect of the organization, the issues I've seen with training agencies it the inconsistency and the complaints that are generated as a result.

There's no doubt that the average GUE/UTD diver is generally speaking, more qualified and better prepared for the challenges of more advanced diving.

There must be a way to hold instructors and students accountable by removing as much of the human factor as possible. There are many who will look the other way for a friend, let people into sites without proper training, etc.

ANother issue is brought to lite my that silly post about some jackass picking up a log, how do you handle a diver thats really training on vacation, many certified CAVE DIVERS simply dont have the time to maintain skills, you have a person that comes to Florida and becomes certified over a year or whatever time frame, they can do almost anything they want once they have the card but if they make it down one a year for a week it will take them 10 years to gain the experience that a local can in 6 months....

Walking away from training is stupid and short sighted.

But there must be a way to improve training and create a more regimented system with inherent checks and balances.

[allen]

Training is the most essential thing any sport organization can do. It keeps newbies from killing themselves. I joined the Appalachian Mountain Club for their rock climbing training. I joined NSS-CDS to support the agency that trained me (and to get access to Cow). I chose NSS-CDS certification for the affiliation with NSS and for CDS' original role in setting standards and formulating safety rules. Most of what I know about cave diving came from a little book published by NSS-CDS called "Blueprint for Survival." My cavern instructor said something like, "Follow these rules, and there's a 98% chance you'll die in bed. Break these rules and there's a 98% chance you'll die in a cave." The rest of my training was learning to apply those rules. That book and our training programs have made an inherently dangerous sport fairly safe. If we don't train people we will become invisible and then disappear. I might suggest a few changes in training, but I still think that the only way we can set standards is by example. ("Don't bother people with advice; teach them by example." -Charles Peguy, French philosopher)

[Jont]

Training is the most essential thing any sport organization can do. It keeps newbies from killing themselves. I joined the Appalachian Mountain Club for their rock climbing training. I joined NSS-CDS to support the agency that trained me (and to get access to Cow). I chose NSS-CDS certification for the affiliation with NSS and for CDS' original role in setting standards and formulating safety rules. Most of what I know about cave diving came from a little book published by NSS-CDS called "Blueprint for Survival." My cavern instructor said something like, "Follow these rules, and there's a 98% chance you'll die in bed. Break these rules and there's a 98% chance you'll die in a cave." The rest of my training was learning to apply those rules. That book and our training programs have made an inherently dangerous sport fairly safe. If we don't train people we will become invisible and then disappear. I might suggest a few changes in training, but I still think that the only way we can set standards is by example. ("Don't bother people with advice; teach them by example." -Charles Peguy, French philosopher)

Well put Allen, totally agree.

From a business standpoint it also makes sense to homegrown your membership and have trained advocates in the public domain saying good things, it can't hurt.

Maybe a few dollars or some profit gets in the hands of a few people maybe not but NO ONE is getting rich off of the CDS so who cares about that.

[JCGoodwin]

This dialog is really healthy for the community as a whole.
All are helping to define these issues in one way or another.
Agencies are really taking a hands off on some very serious issues that they should not be treating so lightly.
How do you correct them? Stop supporting them I guess is the easiest way.

Mentoring is not only effective it WORKS!
You can learn the skills in class and be checked off but if you are wise you will seek a mentor to dive with.
In my twists and turns I have had the pleasure of diving with some great people.
One of which mentors divers and our short two days taught me many things.
What is occurring in the training world today is scary for all those who trained in the past.
The mastery vs. minimal skill requirement with little experience advancing quickly.

How do you work at improving these issues?
Why would any agency subject themselves to anyone to oversee or regulate standards?
It is becoming obvious that they will not even police their own ranks!
What is the next step to fix these issues?

These questions and so many more are real and need to be dealt with.
I applaud those trying to make a difference attempting to change the current trend.
Deep down the community still cares about divers and each other even though there are some squabbles here and there.
Change comes at a price hopefully not lists of fatalities.
If the CDS takes this on then I will support them for trying and put forth an effort to help.

Though we all will never agree on everything, WE all love to dive in caves.
If a cluster of fatalities puts that is jeopardy I am certain unity will not be a problem.
It took time to get to this place and will take time to dig out of it.
I choose to be hopeful and positive embracing change even if it means a bit of sacrifice.

JCG

[Kelly Jessop]

.
The mastery vs. minimal skill requirement with little experience advancing quickly.

This line made me think some,at what point in the cave diving training history did this become a problem? I was certified in 1994,and there were only really two agencies,and within those two agencies there were a handful of instructors. Instructors had to go through an institute,but prior to that they had to intern. I see a lot of agencies,not really sure of prerequisites to get cave trained,the requirements in the class,and how the instructors are made. I am not blasting any agency,but just curious when master vs minimal requirement became an issue/concern.

[cwick]

Chris,

Is this something that is actually being considered seriously?

Jon

Isn't every option worth being considered seriously?

There have been some very good points made here and they've produced some very good questions. It seems that everyone here is
concerned about the future of the CDS and they all seem to feel the need for some change and that gives us some common ground
from which to begin. If we continue to produce ideas and ask questions we can find solutions that most of us can agree with on some level.
In order for this process to work effectively though we have to remain open minded and free thinking, we cannot allow our thoughts to boxed in by the status quo or the past and all ideas should be considered seriously.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There are two primary ways the CDS gain new members,one through training,the other through ownership of sites-eliminate one you eliminate a % percent of new or sustaining members.

I believe an agency participating in active exploration and conservation projects will also bring membership. This is something the NACD sorta touched on a bit, but their political shenanigans pretty much nullified any progress they were going to make. This is something the CDS can do that the for-profit alphabet soup groups will never really touch on.

Right now, I would think CDS membership from training is waning anyway since the CDS isn't providing anything thats not available by virtually anyone else. Sure, the CDS may have helped pave the way decades ago, but they need to stay on-top of the game.


FWIW, I joined initially because I wanted to be part of an active agency. It wasn't, so my membership lapsed. I rejoined this week with those same hopes and a shiney new BOD that brings me some faith of activity. I've never had, nor am I looking for, CDS training. The sites owned by the CDS aren't enough to sway my membership or not either... most people simply don't realize there is literally over a 1000 cavediving sites in Florida that anyone can dive. I believe if membership is given something to participate in, they'll participate. If not, they'll let membership lapse, get apathetic, and go find somewhere else to play(NFSA, ASA, etc)

[Leam]

Right now, I would think CDS membership from training is waning anyway since the CDS isn't providing anything thats not available by virtually anyone else. Sure, the CDS may have helped pave the way decades ago, but they need to stay on-top of the game.

Agreed. I'd love the CDS to be the premier Cave Training agency. Really, who else in the US is best to understand caves in all forms?

FWIW, I joined initially because I wanted to be part of an active agency. It wasn't, so my membership lapsed. I rejoined this week with those same hopes and a shiney new BOD that brings me some faith of activity.

That, officially, makes you awesome!

Leam