Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[jcr]

The membership is the organization,and their input is critical,but if the membership doesn't act then the organization will stagnate.

Leadership is the key to any organization. Blaming the membership is pointless and will change nothing. People will rally behind strong leaders with good ideas.

Charlie

[Walter Pickel]

"A management team distracted by a series of short-term targets is as pointless as a dieter stepping on a scale every half-hour"

- From the Google "Owner's Manual"

[jcr]

Mentoring programs. Requirement after class is done. With that you can evaluate student and teacher. How to start that, I dont know.

I agree and have been an advocate of a formal mentoring program for some time. There are many experienced cave divers that already take on this role and a formal corps of trained mentors willing to volunteer their time would have a significant impact on the overall quality of cave divers.

The fact is, most of the training is pretty good but there's a limit as to what can be retained after such high-intensity and time-limited classes. Many cave divers' knowledge and skills are highest on the last day of their cave class and it's downhill from there. There are many reasons for this including information overload during training, complacency, and diving with other new cave divers. Bad habits are contagious.

IMO cave diver certifications should be provisional until the diver logs at least 50 cave dives with one or more mentors. Not every dive has to be with a mentor but unless the "apprentice" cave diver logs these dives within 2 years, their provisional cert will expire and require refresher training.

Charlie

[Kevin Carlisle]

I agree and have been an advocate of a formal mentoring program for some time. There are many experienced cave divers that already take on this role and a formal corps of trained mentors willing to volunteer their time would have a significant impact on the overall quality of cave divers.

The fact is, most of the training is pretty good but there's a limit as to what can be retained after such high-intensity Anderson time-limited classes. Many cave divers' knowledge and skills are highest on the last day of their cave class and it's downhill from there. There are many reasons for this including information overload during training, complacency, and diving with other new cave divers. Bad habits are contagious.

IMO cave diver certifications should be provisional until the diver logs at least 50 cave dives with one or more mentors. Not every dive has to be with a mentor but unless the "apprentice" cave diver logs these dives within 2 years, their provisional cert will expire and require refresher training.

Charlie

All of the training is setup to be good. Instructors trying to make a living doing this is what's causing the dedrigation of training we are seeing.

[Jont]

"A management team distracted by a series of short-term targets is as pointless as a dieter stepping on a scale every half-hour"

- From the Google "Owner's Manual"

What does that mean and how is it applicable here?

If the CDS gives up training it creates an unclear barrier to entry, unclear means much more difficult especially these days, if we can't cultivate our replacements the organization is already doomed its just not dead but it will be.

Even if you refer someone to a different agency cave training is tough and can last a long time, its human nature to stick with the people that get you through it so the reality is that the good intensions associated with a referral wont pay dividends down the road or at the very least not enough to create a sustainable membership base.

Consider this, a well known moderate religious leader in Paris was asked a question:

Do you think that war is inevitable with the "west (EU & US)"?

The reply was interesting and was something like this: "WAR"....what war, we've already won, in two generations we'll controll the UK & the EU and have such influence in the US & Canada that there will never be a need to fire a single shot, our population is increasing at a rate that cant be matched in addition to being quite sustainable, the "wests" reproduction rates are so low that no civilization in history has ever recovered from such dismal numbers, its likely that in time the "west" will become bankrupt because it will be unable to meet the financial commitments it has to service its aging population.

Now if thats true or not isnt the point but its absolutely true that if there's no clear path to membership through education the CDS is finished, it may take 10 years or longer but its not if, its when.

Besides rumor has it that other organizations have cocaine.

[Kelly Jessop]

The CDS didn't lead in the area of CCR Cave training.

Didn't say that,said for them to stay current. The CDS had offered sidemount training for over 20 years,and now PADI is offering it,are they staying current or leading? Probably both. The reason the CDS offered CCR cave training is obviously an issue for you,but at the time my only concern was this was emerging technology and the CDS would be stupid to ignore it,regardless of what other CDS people felt at the time. One day there will be another type of technology the will enter cave diving,whether training is needed or not is secondary,the key is the CDS needs to embrace it.

[Greenwood_60]

Instructors trying to make a living doing this is what's causing the degradation of training we are seeing.

You can't change human nature. People are always going to try to make it better, faster, or cheaper. The "cave diving community" needs to work with that, not against it. Accreditation is a great solution, regardless of whether that is going to be the CDS's job or not. Agencies need to be held accountable for their instructors, and instructors need to be held accountable for their students.

[jcr]

All of the training is setup to be good. Instructors trying to make a living doing this is what's causing the dedrigation of training we are seeing.

I'm not sure I agree. There's nothing inherently wrong with a professional instructor but there has to be adequate oversight to ensure standards are being met. When instructors control the organization, and therefore the oversight, there is a serious conflict of interest.

Charlie

[Kevin Carlisle]

I'm not sure I agree. There's nothing inherently wrong with a professional instructor but there has to be adequate oversight to ensure standards are being met. When instructors control the organization, and therefore the oversight, there is a serious conflict of interest.

Charlie

That's why I support the CDS getting out of the cert buisnss. Unfortunately I stand by my earlier remarks. Get out and watch some classes or some newer full cave students and you will see its true. Wish it wasn't.

[cerich]

I don't even know where to start with this...it sound great and would make a difference...but in practice I think not so much.

On Monday Edd and I went for a fun dive in Hole in the Wall, on Tuesday I mentioned this to a open water instructor I know who wants to get into cave diving, his reply was " i really liked it there as well"...well that got my attention, asked some questions and found out he did some trust me dives with a cave diver (not instructor) I also know. Both plead out as dumb asses, i gave my "it seems really easy until it isn't speech" and have determined that I won't be part of the Open Water Instructions ongoing training in any format because he showed a HUGE lack of judgment....by the way I certified him as a instructor and did not see any hint of that type of attitude in his Instructor training, he hid it because he knew we wouldn't approve. just like the ow folks in the boat that came up and asked us if we were going to be diving the cave for long and when we said we wouldn't be in the way said "we'll come back later" and sure enough they were sitting waiting for us to leave when we got out of the water 90 mins later ...and waited another hour for Edd and I to actually drive the boat away before they went diving..obviously to explore the cave and they didn't want to hear Edd and I tell them they were being stupid, they knew and didn't care.

This type of attitude is everywhere, recently I heard multiple rumors that somebody who REALLY should have known better took a unqualified (not tmix) non full cave diver on a 300 ft deep dive to the nest, they seemed to feel it was ok because it wasn't a formal training or guiding dive, just a fun dive with a friend....another Instructor.

The other side of the problem is that there are MANY if not most that in fact DO want a easy course, they don't want to be challenged in any way.

I agree and have been an advocate of a formal mentoring program for some time. There are many experienced cave divers that already take on this role and a formal corps of trained mentors willing to volunteer their time would have a significant impact on the overall quality of cave divers.

The fact is, most of the training is pretty good but there's a limit as to what can be retained after such high-intensity and time-limited classes. Many cave divers' knowledge and skills are highest on the last day of their cave class and it's downhill from there. There are many reasons for this including information overload during training, complacency, and diving with other new cave divers. Bad habits are contagious.

IMO cave diver certifications should be provisional until the diver logs at least 50 cave dives with one or more mentors. Not every dive has to be with a mentor but unless the "apprentice" cave diver logs these dives within 2 years, their provisional cert will expire and require refresher training.

Charlie