Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[Kevin Carlisle]

I don't think the new BoD will sit as idle, and it is a wake-up call to the instructors, so hopefully they will make some changes.

I dont think they will either. I think they have a chance at getting the cds back to what it should be and I think they will try.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I don't think the new BoD will sit as idle, and it is a wake-up call to the instructors, so hopefully they will make some changes.

I truly hope so!

[Kelly Jessop]

Looking at the survey numbers, there are a lot of happy people with a organization sitting idle and with no direction. Pretty sad.

I think getting out of training and sitting idle are mutually exclusive. Has the CDS been sitting idle,or this an interpretation from some members? From my perspective the CDS board has probably been engaged,but probably not things that the membership interprets as important. There have been some administrative changes,and the law suit have been time consuming. I would agree with you that there is some stagnation,and I say give these new board members time to learn their jobs,develop team work,and bring new perspectives to the association.

Most agree that Ford brought auto manufacturing to the modern age,but when Toyota became the number one in manufacturing,did we tell Ford to stop manufacturing,and take an alternative role? Bad analogy,but I think the basic understanding is there. The NACD first and CDS secondly saved the sport of cave diving which was on the verge of being outlawed in the 70s. They are victims of their own success,because once cave diving became less of an extreme sport,but an ecotourism activity,other people decided to enter the market to capitalize on the emerging growth. Has the CDS kept up,partially yes,and has even lead in other areas. For example the CDS saw emerging technology with rebreathers,and was fought by a small faction to not develop training,but it was imperative that the CDS offer this,and stay current. There are some other areas where the CDS leads. For example around 2006-2007 the CDS wrote some required conservation standards in their training program that assured students heard about conservation not just in the classroom,but the water too. No all is perfect,the CDS needs some training material updates,but I asay we have a new training leadership and they need the time and opportunity to address the issues. There are two primary ways the CDS gain new members,one through training,the other through ownership of sites-eliminate one you eliminate a % percent of new or sustaining members. So if the CDS stopped training and lost members,which means a loss of revenue,who will pay for the lines,signs,conservation materials,landowner relations etc? The for profit agencies have been able to teach,and profit on the work of the nonprofit agencies because they have laid the foundation and environment for them to be successful. When is the last time we've seen XXXXX,XXX,XXXX,XXXX signs? line? talked to landowners thinking about closing a cave?

I am not trying to flame anyone or bust anybody,but a search of the forums will see this discussion comes up fairly routine,and since the average cave divers turns over every 2-3 years,then this ends up being a new topic. I agree with Kevin,I don't want stagnation and sitting idle,but a fresh organization moving ahead. 1) I say give this new board sometime. This is the first time in the 20 years that I have been a member that I have seen so many new people come in at one time. There a new ideas and fresh opinions there 2) The membership needs to leave their QWERTY,and become involved. It was pitfull that it took extreme measures to get 20% of the members to send their ballots back. If you don't like something,then become involved and fix it,because you don't have to be on the board,there are committees begging for help.

[Bobby]

Kelly,
You and I agree overall more than we disagree. You are correct that with so many new board members they will need time for adjustment and learning. At the same time I believe they are off to a great start as their communication with the membership is spot on. They are asking some of the tough questions and looking in the mirror to say "how can we do it better"

However I also believe that continuing to harp on the membership for not being involved is counter productive, the same as harping on past BOD actions is not productive. There is nothing positive in going back and forth with blame as to why membership is or is not active. Here and now we have a board that is saying they are open to new ideas, ways of doing things, and actively looking to make improvements. We also have the membership giving good input, ideas, and feed back. If we keep this rolling I believe that it will also result in more involvement and results.

BTW if anyone has been on the fence about joining the CDS now is the time IMHO. There is a broad range of possibilities for something better. Positive change can only come if those that have wanted something better jump in and this is one of those rare moments when the timing is just right.

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly,
However I also believe that continuing to harp on the membership for not being involved is counter productive, the same as harping on past BOD actions is not productive. There is nothing positive in going back and forth with blame as to why membership is or is not active. Here and now we have a board that is saying they are open to new ideas, ways of doing things, and actively looking to make improvements. We also have the membership giving good input, ideas, and feed back. If we keep this rolling I believe that it will also result in more involvement and results.

.

I agree with what you are saying. The membership is the organization,and their input is critical,but if the membership doesn't act then the organization will stagnate.

[JamesK]

You both make excellent points, an I think with the huge turnover on the board and a new training director now is the time to see what can be done. This is a great opportunity for the CDS and its membership to work to build something great! I am not saying get rid of training all together. I can not jump to such a decision without hearing all sides and forming my own opinion. However, talking about such things, no matter how extreme, is what brings change and compromise and good solutions. To stifle and silence this type of talk, not saying anyone is, is what breeds the stagnation.

Ok now I am rambling.

[SR]

I think the NSS-CDS should stay in the C-CARD business. I do not think without that initial exposure to the NSS-CDS during training that I would have come on board as a member. I don't think the C-CARD Business should be allowed to run the NSS-CDS.

[Walter Pickel]

Kelly, James, Bobby...You all make great points.

The notion that without training revenue the organization will fold line is getting very tiring. If that were indeed the case, how would one explain how the NSS continues to thrive? How is the SCCi is hitting it out of the park (2 years ago they had over $1MM in the bank). DISCLOSURE: I am a sustaining member of SCCi ($240/year) and a member of the NSS. I AM NOT a member of the CDS and heard online that my lifetime membership of the NACD had been terminated.

The statement of "let the new BOD learn" is frightening. Why on Earth would anyone want them to learn how to run an UNSUCCESSFUL organization? How about the members say "Have at it! We elected you to make the organization better because we believe in you; now do everything you want to." It would be apparent that the 20% that did vote want this. The 80% that did not vote really con't give a crap.

[Benthic]

<snip>
I have turned an instructor in for, what I consider, criminal much less standards violations. I was informed directly by the training director for the agency that they couldn't do anything because the instructor teaches for multiple agencies and discipline would only hurt the agency from lost revenue.

Proof that the agency in question considers it more important to uphold their bank balance than their training standards...

<snip>
Has the CDS kept up,partially yes,and has even lead in other areas. For example the CDS saw emerging technology with rebreathers,and was fought by a small faction to not develop training,but it was imperative that the CDS offer this,and stay current. <snip>

The CDS didn't lead in the area of CCR Cave training. IANTD already had a program at the time the CDS was considering developing theirs. So don't try to tell us that the CDS was trying to lead the industry...they weren't. They were responding to requests from a certain instructor, who was simply looking for a way to put more money in his pocket. I'd call him by name, but that's probably akin to begging for my post to be deleted.

Now I'm not saying that Bobby's experience involved the CDS. But I am saying that if the CDS wants to style itself as the gold standard it needs to make decisions based on the good of the sport, and of it's membership...NOT based on the good of individual instructors, or it's own bank balance.

If I thought that the CDS was doing good things for cave divers as a whole...I'd be a member. But, in my opinion, they have historically responded to the desires of their instructors and not much more. I'm hopeful (very hopeful) that the new board will change that. Time will tell...


Brian

[kotik]

I think getting out of training and sitting idle are mutually exclusive.

Agreed. If the poll was "Do you want the CDS to be active and with clear direction?", my vote would be yes. That's not the poll though, and I haven't heard any clear statement to convince me that involvement in training prevents this. To me at least it's clear that being active in promoting cave conservation and promoting high standards for training can go hand in hand with actually offering training.

Can anyone say in a short clear statement exactly what doing away with training is supposed to accomplish?