Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[gschaut]

I think that we're on to something here. One of the problems is that a new student doesn't really know if his or her instructor did
A good job of teaching them ( they don't know what they don't know) and the training agencies don't get paid by failing or sanctioning instructors and while there are some very good instructors out there we still are producing some sub standard divers.

So with that said; how do we solve this puzzle?

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
(who will keep watch over the guardians?)

This problem has been around for about 2,000 years, and nobody has come up with a perfect solution yet.

Honor tends to be a somewhat reliable option. (It works for the Marine Corps)

IF... CDS took the high road, and made itself the "gold standard" for training, it would set a benchmark that other agencies would measure themselves against.

BUT... taking the high road means being smaller than other agencies. Having fewer instructors, fewer certifications, being called "elitist" by the professional, fast food model, certification mills.

Names withheld to protect the guilty... But back in the late 70's when I was looking into getting my first C card, there was a half page ad in a SCUBA magazine. It showed a fully equipped OW diver crawling across the floor of a desert. The caption was "Why do other agencies make SCUBA training so dry?". The text implied that the agency that made the ad would not require their students to actually sit in a classroom and learn the physics of diving. But would instead rush their students thru pool and OW training and give them their C-cards faster, and without all that boring math. Or bothering to learn the how's and why's of the underwater environment.

I went with the "dry" training agency for my first C-card, because I WANTED to learn how (and why) to do it the right way. And I'm sure there may still be a few potential students out there interested in getting trained by the best training agency in the business.

Just a thought.

[JamesK]

Mentoring programs. Requirement after class is done. With that you can evaluate student and teacher. How to start that, I dont know.

Mentoring, in my opinion, does more for developing a diver then a structured class. While a class gives the students the skills they need, and shows them how to apply those skills, mentoring is ongoing and helps grow the student. While I felt, and still feel, my instructors (Mark Pergram and Larry Green) did a great job, I feel my mentors which actually included both of them, helped me grow and become the better diver I wanted to be. How do we implement that? Well, while it is a very small step, maybe we could actually add a mentoring program to the CDS. Not an instructor rating, but a mentor rating. People who would be available to dive, at their own cost at no charge to the student, and help build the experience of that individual. I am always more then willing to dive with an "intro" diver and help them learn. However, how do those new divers find those people? Just getting on the forum and looking for a buddy can be risky. However, having an NSS-CDS approved mentor list would be a huge leap for those individuals.

just my thoughts.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Ìf the CDS is out of the business of training/education, who creates, maintains, and upholds the standards?

Everyone else thats already following and maintaining the same standards... NACD, IANTD, PSAI, TDI, NAUI, GUE, PADI, and the rest of the alphabet too.

The CDS has not set itself apart from anyone else in SOOOOO long.

[PfcAJ]

But why would a for profit agency like GUE, TDI or IANTD submit to oversight from the CDS?

Fwiw, GUE is not for profit. I don't know about the other agencies.

[Tegg]

How about the CDS just does an instructor "clean up" and start booting crap instructors?

Then shape up the ones that are left by doing a recertification and remedial "new rules" program where there are SET MINIMUM SKILLS required. None of this "you barely did the skill" and pass bull crap.

As far as finding the crap instructors:

Everyone knows who they are... just sit in the cavern of peacock or ginnie for 2 or 3 weekends. You can narrow it down pretty quick.

[moody]

Fwiw, GUE is not for profit. I don't know about the other agencies.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that GUE wasn't for profit. Thanks for the info.

[mdax]

I'm not sure how you'all would architect this without data. It'd probably just turn into another cave agency witch hunt based on social grouping and perceived penis size.

It'd be REALLY interesting to change the paradigm so students registered for classes through the certifying organization. At least then they'd have accurate data regarding pass/fail rates.

There are well known instructors in this area that everyone knows are soft regarding standards and not so well known ones that are hard core about them and REGULARLY fail students for not meeting standards...However just as lawyers would deeply resist a database tracking their actual rates of success in the courtroom, instructors would also never agree to such a thing.

[Superlyte27]

I'm not sure how you'all would architect this without data. It'd probably just turn into another cave agency witch hunt based on social grouping and perceived penis size.

It'd be REALLY interesting to change the paradigm so students registered for classes through the certifying organization. At least then they'd have accurate data regarding pass/fail rates.

There are well known instructors in this area that everyone knows are soft regarding standards and not so well known ones that are hard core about them and REGULARLY fail students for not meeting standards...However just as lawyers would deeply resist a database tracking their actual rates of success in the courtroom, instructors would also never agree to such a thing.

The good ones would.

[Kevin Carlisle]

Everyone else thats already following and maintaining the same standards... NACD, IANTD, PSAI, TDI, NAUI, GUE, PADI, and the rest of the alphabet too.

The CDS has not set itself apart from anyone else in SOOOOO long.

Looking at the survey numbers, there are a lot of happy people with a organization sitting idle and with no direction. Pretty sad.

[FW]

Looking at the survey numbers, there are a lot of happy people with a organization sitting idle and with no direction. Pretty sad.

I don't think the new BoD will sit as idle, and it is a wake-up call to the instructors, so hopefully they will make some changes.