When Things Go Wrong

[Bobby]

What has sadly changed is the existence of the internet. Before the internet, we usually didn't even know there was an accident for days, and analysis was left up to people like Sheck Exley, who published a book years after the accidents.

This childish stomping of the foot, and saying "I want it NOW" will not do anything but make the situation worse. It has gotten to the point that anyone involved with an accident will never say a word, for fear they will be flamed for weeks or even years afterward.

+1!

[JamesK]

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Golden Geese beat the #### out of squirrels

What has sadly changed is the existence of the internet. Before the internet, we usually didn't even know there was an accident for days, and analysis was left up to people like Sheck Exley, who published a book years after the accidents.

This childish stomping of the foot, and saying "I want it NOW" will not do anything but make the situation worse. It has gotten to the point that anyone involved with an accident will never say a word, for fear they will be flamed for weeks or even years afterward.

Sheck is dead, quit using him as a scapegoat.





Nobody else is really doing any accident analysis, years later or not. If accident analysis is a good thing(and I think it is), the internet is a tool that can get the message across much quicker than writing, publishing, and distributing a book.

I don't know of any reputable agency that would cover up an incident. The agencies I teach through would handle a situation according to policy and local laws. They have no obligation to make any of this public though.

They won't cover it up, but they surely don't promote accident analysis despite it being taught in the curriculum.

[DogHouseDiver]

The people this happened to are sitting home, feeling happy to be alive, and likely thinking about.whether or not to report on it firsthand. There may also be a career at stake. They read these forums and know they might get chewed up, and it may be a rough thing to face to a hungry for info community. But we are a community, one that needs to.learn. So I for one will act like a community member and give these folks a chance to catch their breaths, kiss their families,talk internally, and hopefully they all or in part will come forward and share so we can all learn. I'll be patient and hope that they step forward.and brave this forum of peers so we can all be safer. THAT COURAGE to step up and admit fault and learn from it and seek acceptance from one's peers is brave, as I'm sure these divers know that every move will be analyzed.

I hope they settle in, kiss family, get level headed, and give their accounts and I hope we all provide them with a positive reception for doing so.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I hope they settle in, kiss family, get level headed, and give their accounts and I hope we all provide them with a positive reception for doing so.

Lets be honest here, whenever someone has stepped up and offered first hand information, they DO get community support. Even the WKPP(who everyone loves to hate) got nothing but accolades when they stepped forward after a recent accident.

[DogHouseDiver]

Yep, I'm just giving them a.few more days before assuming no one will talk. The instructor may want to report to his agency first, etc. I believe a report is "due" to the community, but.I'm realistic about timing and how this may.have.shaken them up. If two weeks go by and we hear nothing I would again be disappointed.... But since no one was hurt, I'm optimistic that we may see a firsthand account on this one.

[a64pilot]

Nobody else is really doing any accident analysis, years later or not.

I've been trained to do aviation accident analysis, and have sat on some accident review boards. Even though it's not done here "by the book" and with a checklist, you'd be surprised how well it's done here. Accident analysis is based on "common sense" because we all do it whether we realize it or not, it's how even children learn. A child sticks their hand on a hot stove, feels pain, determines the stove is the cause of the pain, decides not to touch stove again, one trial learning, but it's accident analysis too isn't it?
Yes there are opinions, Ego's, and some financial incentives here, but there is in an aircraft accident investigation as well. Any investigation steps on some toes, often the wrong ones, and feelings are sometimes hurt, but you do learn from them.
One of the first things you learn in accident analysis, is that accidents are almost always a chain of events, break one link and the accident doesn't happen.
It's comforting for us to say, I'd never do that, I wouldn't let that happen to me, but sometimes it does, and sometimes the reason it is a close call as opposed to an accident is training that is imposed as a result from an accident analysis.
Oh, and in reflection, any Cop will tell you, eye witnesses are almost always wrong, whatever that's worth. I was anyway.
But, an analysis of any "near miss" often yields more useful data than an investigation of a fatality, because the dead can't talk.

[mdax]

I hate to point out the obvious "there may be a career at stake"...well dang there should be. If an instructor lost his students in jb in a silt out then not only should students be warned away but the instructor also needs to take a GOOD hard look at their motivations and abilities while taking a long break from teaching cave diving. I have no experience as an instructor, however as a consumer of their services losing students in a silt out is just totally unsat. Did they perform a lost buddy(s) search?

I'd take a bet with anyone here(pm'ing me to confirm your bet is necessary to get in on the action) 20 says the agencies do nothing to this instructor at all. People will gnash teeth and point to legalese crap that limits their actions in charters and such. I don't think it's really that different than other professional organizations, you damn well have to commit a felony to get thrown out of the bar or lose a medical license....funny you mention the wkpp/gue as they are the only agency i can think of that may stop an instructor who does something like this from teaching.

[Jax]

Okay, non-cave-diver disclaimer . . . I do not understand this need to quickly place blame, especially on an instructor. Last time I looked, an instructor is NOT God, and therefore cannot control everthing . . . It sounds like the lost students were trained well, but one panicked.Now, help out a newb to understand. For some reason, there was a silt-out. I would SWAG that the instructor immediately did a lost buddy drill on a line from the mainline . . . not finding the students, he called for help. I'm not finding much wrong with that.One student was doing the right thing, with a lost line search. Kudos to him/her. The other panicked Not in the instructor's control.What do you think the instructor should have done? Stayed in until his air was low? I think calling for help was the very best thing, from my uneducated thoughts.

[Jax]

Sorry for the run-on . . . the new-line isn't being kept.