Support the opening of Wakulla Springs

[Benderr]

Mat, the problem is this new "campaign" ia approaching this without doing any research as to what's been done in the past. I stated this several days ago and was pretty much ignored. There is still a push to send letters requesting Wakulla be open to diving but no factual information addressing the issues of the past. This will not help open Wakulla. It may only create a bigger roadblock. I started looking into something similar about a year and a half ago and am still gathering information. This is not something anyone is going to accomplish in just a few months. It will take time, possibly years. I think the letter campaign needs to be put on hold until you guys do some homework. A blind campaign will do nothing to help.

Rob, folks have invested months of their lives in research, planning, meetings, etc. The current version of this "campaign" is well over a year old. I've personally driven from Mobile to the Wakulla area more times than I care to admit. I've gotten one dive out of it (I don't usually travel unless diving is included) and spent hard-earned dive dollars on fuel, lodging and eats, all for a spring I probably won't be able to dive even if it's opened tomorrow (I'm only cavern atm). A dozen or so other folks have similarly invested time, effort and money. We've not just researched the current "campaign" either. If this effort fails, other options are available.

Mostly, the folks I talked to just wanted to tell me how impossible the goals are. How we should just give up because there was no chance in hell that Wakulla would ever be opened. I've never heard so much negativity. While there were a few (like one or two) pearls of wisdom to be gathered, it was mostly pessimistic b***s*** over-and-over. Many of the reasons for past failures are also no longer relevant.

Mat already posted the arguments against us from other park users. We discussed these items with DEP/Parks. I think the folks at DEP/Parks were mostly able to see that the majority of the complaints were bogus. Their biggest concerns seemed to be Artifacts, Pissing off the Scuba-haters, and Implementation (how do we manage diving at Wakulla if allowed?)

Several of the DEP/Parks people we met were familiar with, and mostly respectful of the cave diving community, seeing them as responsible users that took care of the parks, and didn't cause trouble.

We can't do anything about pissing off the scuba-haters. If the status-quo changes, it's a hit they will have to take. We can mitigate this by showing DEP/Parks that a large number of users (cavers) are willing to fall-in with wallets in hand, and that we are ready to play nice with everyone, even if they are haters.

Artifact preservation, imho, is the one legitimate complaint. Arguments are, we're willing to work with the appropriate authorities to either collect, preserve, or leave the items the hell alone. They've been down there for a long time, and no one cares enough to do anything about them, except for us, if necessary.

Implementation is something we should be willing to assist with and/or compromise on. I've personally changed my opinion on this element several times, and I'm not totally settled on a personal position, much less a recommendation on what an "official" position should be. I was originally for fully-open, no restrictions, etc., but that might be better as a distant goal. It might help the cause to start things out with restrictions, and then move towards openness as we prove we can handle it. I think the Emerald restrictions are overbearing at best, and probably illegal, but half-assed open is better than full-assed closed.

So what does all that mean? It means we should take the position that we want equal access to public assets, and that we're willing to reach reasonable compromises with Parks/DEP on artifacts and implementation. We're willing to do all the work if necessary too (building steps, setting up rules, finding a way to grant access, etc.)

Beyond that, and perhaps more importantly, we need to demonstrate that we are responsible users. We need to demonstrate that out-of-town divers, like me, make about 35 trips to Florida every year for the sole purpose of diving, and that if I travel more than 125 miles, that I also camp, or purchase a hotel room, that I eat three meals a day. I don't eat at McDonald's either. I eat a locally owned and operated non-chain restaurants, and I tip 20% unless the service was shockingly poor, and then I still tip 10%. I spend a few grand each year in purchasing dive gear from Florida vendors. I buy fills, I gas-up my truck, I take scuba classes, and I'm going to be making more trips if/when Wakulla opens, and I'm going to tell all my friends how awesome it was and post photos and videos and internet reviews telling everyone how awesome diving is in Florida. I'm a job-creator, and advertiser all rolled into one. I take only photos, and leave only bubbles, and out-of-state money.

[RN]

It is going to require both. "The People" calling for access, and someone telling them "look at all the money you can make while making all these people happy". We can tell them there are however many people wanting to dive Wakulla, but if no one gets up and yells "I wanna dive Wakulla", what are they going to believe?

Yelling won't get heard. Reasonable arguments might.

I acknowledged what you said earlier in this thread, you can find it here http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...l=1#post169172 . I agree with you, and I want to know what we can do to provide the information necessary.

Unfortunately, everyone wants to keep discussion incredibly vague and keep it all in secracy.






What do cave divers have to hide?

Yes, you did respond. However, the same vague letter was posted as an example of what to send. I posted some of the arguments I've heard yet they don't seem to be addressed by the current campaign. So why would anyone want to post any other suggestions?

[RN]

Rob, folks have invested months of their lives in research, planning, meetings, etc. The current version of this "campaign" is well over a year old. I've personally driven from Mobile to the Wakulla area more times than I care to admit. I've gotten one dive out of it (I don't usually travel unless diving is included) and spent hard-earned dive dollars on fuel, lodging and eats, all for a spring I probably won't be able to dive even if it's opened tomorrow (I'm only cavern atm). A dozen or so other folks have similarly invested time, effort and money. We've not just researched the current "campaign" either. If this effort fails, other options are available.

Mostly, the folks I talked to just wanted to tell me how impossible the goals are. How we should just give up because there was no chance in hell that Wakulla would ever be opened. I've never heard so much negativity. While there were a few (like one or two) pearls of wisdom to be gathered, it was mostly pessimistic b***s*** over-and-over. Many of the reasons for past failures are also no longer relevant.

Mat already posted the arguments against us from other park users. We discussed these items with DEP/Parks. I think the folks at DEP/Parks were mostly able to see that the majority of the complaints were bogus. Their biggest concerns seemed to be Artifacts, Pissing off the Scuba-haters, and Implementation (how do we manage diving at Wakulla if allowed?)

Several of the DEP/Parks people we met were familiar with, and mostly respectful of the cave diving community, seeing them as responsible users that took care of the parks, and didn't cause trouble.

We can't do anything about pissing off the scuba-haters. If the status-quo changes, it's a hit they will have to take. We can mitigate this by showing DEP/Parks that a large number of users (cavers) are willing to fall-in with wallets in hand, and that we are ready to play nice with everyone, even if they are haters.

Artifact preservation, imho, is the one legitimate complaint. Arguments are, we're willing to work with the appropriate authorities to either collect, preserve, or leave the items the hell alone. They've been down there for a long time, and no one cares enough to do anything about them, except for us, if necessary.

Implementation is something we should be willing to assist with and/or compromise on. I've personally changed my opinion on this element several times, and I'm not totally settled on a personal position, much less a recommendation on what an "official" position should be. I was originally for fully-open, no restrictions, etc., but that might be better as a distant goal. It might help the cause to start things out with restrictions, and then move towards openness as we prove we can handle it. I think the Emerald restrictions are overbearing at best, and probably illegal, but half-assed open is better than full-assed closed.

So what does all that mean? It means we should take the position that we want equal access to public assets, and that we're willing to reach reasonable compromises with Parks/DEP on artifacts and implementation. We're willing to do all the work if necessary too (building steps, setting up rules, finding a way to grant access, etc.)

Beyond that, and perhaps more importantly, we need to demonstrate that we are responsible users. We need to demonstrate that out-of-town divers, like me, make about 35 trips to Florida every year for the sole purpose of diving, and that if I travel more than 125 miles, that I also camp, or purchase a hotel room, that I eat three meals a day. I don't eat at McDonald's either. I eat a locally owned and operated non-chain restaurants, and I tip 20% unless the service was shockingly poor, and then I still tip 10%. I spend a few grand each year in purchasing dive gear from Florida vendors. I buy fills, I gas-up my truck, I take scuba classes, and I'm going to be making more trips if/when Wakulla opens, and I'm going to tell all my friends how awesome it was and post photos and videos and internet reviews telling everyone how awesome diving is in Florida. I'm a job-creator, and advertiser all rolled into one. I take only photos, and leave only bubbles, and out-of-state money.

The point you're missing is this isn't about money. The arguments have to do with interfering with other interests. We need to study those interests and show how cave diving won't interfere with them. No one is doing that here. The proposed letter states we want to dive Wakulla and should be able to. Nothing about how allowing diving will not have a negative impact as the opponents belive it will, and why it won't have a negative impact. Months of research isn't going to do anything to prepare for something like this. If you're getting a lot of negative feedback from people you talk to then you're talking to the wrong people. There are many of us that want Wakulla open. We are just approaching it differently.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The form letter is just one way to get the governments attention, but like you said, without "scientific" information concerning the arguements provided against opening Wakulla - the kind of letter you propose isn't going to be worth much. Unfortunately, all the people sending in the form letter aren't scientists.

That kind of letter will need to be carried out by someone who has a scientific background, where the content will mean something. I agree we need more of this, but I have no idea where to get it - and half the reason I'm posting here is for the hopes that within the CDF there's a connection to be made with those that HAVE that background.

I guess I keep forgetting that CDF is supposedly not a place to talk about cave diving.

[Line Squirrel]

You are missing an important point. The purpose of the parks system isn't to make money, it is to conserve resources, and allow public participation as long as it is safe.

What most people don't know is that almost all the Florida state parks lose money, there are only a handfull, if that, that actualy turn a profit. When I worked for the state park system, I was told there were two out of 150something that "made" money.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The current government is running everything like a business, I think money DOES infact play a huge part right now.

[Greenwood_60]

Yelling won't get heard. Reasonable arguments might.

How much time do you really think they put in to reading the letters we send? And I don't literally mean yelling. You think they do much more than keep a tally of most issues people write in about? There has to be quantity before they will care.

A PR issue would get their attention... or even a phone call to your Florida House Representative. Letters don't do much, but are definitely required. I sent my two.

[RN]

Still missing the point. Letters without content won't do much. Intelligently written letters with appropriate content might just get some attention. And you don't have to be a scientist to write them. You just need to understand the issues and address them. When I first started looking into this over a year and a half ago the first thing I did was contact several people who have gotten sites open and have built a relationship with key people working for the state. And I listened to what they had to tell me. What I don't want to do it undo any progress that has been made over the years. Unguided campaigns can have that effect and can even help support the opposition by proving their point. Sending letters that don't address the issues just send the message that the letter writers don't know the issues and therefore the site needs to remain closed for that reason alone. This campaign may do more harm than good.

[ianr33]

What most people don't know is that almost all the Florida state parks lose money, there are only a handfull, if that, that actualy turn a profit. When I worked for the state park system, I was told there were two out of 150something that "made" money.

But presumably the State makes money overall from its State Parks. (Taking account of Hotels.meals,gas etc.etc)

[Benderr]

The point you're missing is this isn't about money.

You are wrong. I looked into the faces of the decision-makers, and saw when they perked up the most. There are other CONCERNS, but demonstrating that we bring more money into Florida, and not just to the park, but to the hotels, restaurants, and dive shops, THAT is what they were most interested in. They already know that divers won't affect swimmers, and that boat routes can be tweaked to allow sharing of the resources.

The arguments have to do with interfering with other interests. We need to study those interests and show how cave diving won't interfere with them. No one is doing that here. The proposed letter states we want to dive Wakulla and should be able to. Nothing about how allowing diving will not have a negative impact as the opponents belive it will, and why it won't have a negative impact.

Yes, we already went over this. It was also in a presentation to the decision makers, and in individual letters sent to the decision makers, and to letters to the editor, local meetings with other stakeholders, etc.

A form letter, is just that. It is for people who care enough to buy a stamp, and register their opinion in writing. It is MEANT to be broad and vague, as someone from Finland can't vote in Florida, and someone in Crawfordville won't be bringing out-of-state money to spend, or staying at a hotel. People who REALLY care about the issue should take the time to write a personal letter, but I think it's best to stick to certain topics. The simplest argument is always the strongest.

If you hate the form letter so much, post your own. If you have scientific evidence that divers won't molest swimmers, murder manatees or require rescue helicopters that may interfere with the lodge's ability to sell t-shirts, then I'm totally open to getting it in front of Parks/DEP.

Months of research isn't going to do anything to prepare for something like this.

First you complain about no research, now you say it isn't going to do anything to prepare for something like this. Which is it?

If you're getting a lot of negative feedback from people you talk to then you're talking to the wrong people.

Yes, I was talking to cave divers. They are clearly the wrong people to talk to about opening a cave diving site. The only thing worse than a cave diver, is a cave diving organization, which is really just an assembly of cave divers. I also talked to a lobbyist. He wanted money I didn't have to give us suggestions on advancing the cause. I wrenched as much free info out of that guy as I could, but if you want to write him a check, I'll go find his business card.

There are many of us that want Wakulla open. We are just approaching it differently.

Good! Just don't step on my toes in the process. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

How much time do you really think they put in to reading the letters we send? And I don't literally mean yelling. You think they do much more than keep a tally of most issues people write in about? There has to be quantity before they will care.

Exactly!

A PR issue would get their attention... or even a phone call to your Florida House Representative. Letters don't do much, but are definitely required. I sent my two.

It is a PR issue. Other parks are open. Technical issues aside, opening Wakulla will upset a lot of people. We need to demonstrate that we are already upset that it's closed, and that the path of least resistance is giving us a carrot to chew on for a while.