Cave Diving Survey

[aainslie]

I hardly ever even SEE anyone on a dive. So I suppose, the argument for a long hose relates to diving overpopulated tourist traps.

And the people I DO dive with, I have a strong agreement with - we're essentially solo. This change alone changes a lot of behaviors (see risk mitigation and moral hazard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard) issues in the other thread that Gerrard started).

Anyway, all this goes back to... why would one NOT want to teach an inherently better approach ab initio?

or if that's too rich for you... let me move to a more agnostic position. If all parties could agree that there is a lack of clear evidence, theoretic or empirical, for one or the other why would one go with insisting on only teaching one?

It's time to fix this. We shoud be seeing more students in sidemount right out the gate.

[Bobby]

I hardly ever even SEE anyone on a dive. So I suppose, the argument for a long hose relates to diving overpopulated tourist traps.

And the people I DO dive with, I have a strong agreement with - we're essentially solo. This change alone changes a lot of behaviors (see risk mitigation and moral hazard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard) issues in the other thread that Gerrard started).

Anyway, all this goes back to... why would one NOT want to teach an inherently better approach ab initio?

or if that's too rich for you... let me move to a more agnostic position. If all parties could agree that there is a lack of clear evidence, theoretic or empirical, for one or the other why would one go with insisting on only teaching one?

It's time to fix this. We shoud be seeing more students in sidemount right out the gate.

Interesting? You say that BM is antiquated and less optimal than SM and that we should adopt SM as a better system. Yet you propose in doing so we should go back to an even more antiquated system of using short hose.

To back this up you are saying that you "hardly ever even SEE anyone on a dive." for your reasoning that using the short hose is optimal. Then add that within the group you dive with solo is the mind set so all is good.

The jeer at "tourist traps" is funny with how much you dive the so called tourist traps yourself.

What I have not heard is anything that discounts the possible and real benefits of using a long hose with SM. I have used a long hose on SM for years and there has never been a time that I could not get through something because I had a long hose on a cylinder. There have been times I couldn't get my shoulders through but that had nothing to do with a long hose.

To shift your argument to another light (pun intended). You have a top quality high dollar light that has never failed on a dive for many years. So why the heck should we bother with back up lights?

Bobby

[aainslie]

The "tourist trap" thing was meant to be a somewhat self-referential jab. So I'm glad you found it funny - that was the intent. Of course I'm a tourist!!

The solo approach was also meant to be lightly joking since it does speak to the moral hazard issue in the other thread. It was a bit tangential I suppose.

Maybe it's just my humour that sucks.

I'll admit the hose thing isn't a biggie. if people want to slap a little more hose under a bungie so be it. I just think it's a side issue (so to speak).

On the light... it's eactly the solo approach that makes sure that i carry tons of the little buggers. They're the same issue.

[Bobby]

Its all good. After the beat down I got using the "tourist" word on TDS I clearly could see the humor. Just poking back is all. I also take the solo mind set and with that don't get wound up about how others kit themselves up. I do like to be prepared for the unexpected and take a few precautions that others may call unneeded, to each their own.

I do think from a training point that teaching SM with the long hose makes the most sense on many fronts, especially getting it set up in the first place.

Bobby

[Expedition Divers]

Good discussion guys. Don't forget to fill out the survey!

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/89DVKMB

[DA Aquamaster]

What Survey?

[Expedition Divers]

How about the one in the post above. There is a hyperlink to surveymonkey.

[argyris]

I still argue for a long hose on sidemount. It is so much easier to hand off the long hose to the oog buddy than to remove a sidemount tank, hand it to oog diver, who then unclips his/her empty to replace with other, or now carries three tanks....ugg! Just hand over a long hose and be done with it. I can also imagine a tight place in which handing a long hose is possible but handing a tank may not be.

To say complete OOG is unlikely or even darn near impossible is no reason to assume it has or never will happen. I agree that BM or SM, the total loss of all gas is remote. But planning for the remote possibility and teaching what to do not only teaches what to do, but adds confidence, and makes one think further ahead. After class (and certification) you can dump your long hose if you decide...they won't revoke the c-card.

Teaching and setting training standards involves more than just dealing with "likely" scenarios.

I've also seen divers go from single to backmount to sidemount in about 2 months, never becoming proficient at any configuration. So before I'd teach cavern/cave in sidemount (I am not an instructor, but if I were...) I'd want to see a log book with number of dives in sidemount noted, and of course do a trial dive to see proficiency.

I would like to hear from some cave instructors who dive sidemount, but teach in backmount. Their perspective is perhaps more insightful.

-skip

I agree with the long hose configuration as long as there is a valid gas management process. So there are two questions arise:

1. Gas management rule and process of tank use.
2. Do you breath from the long hose and when (from what point).

I would like to hear opinion and solutions for these.

[Bobby]

I agree with the long hose configuration as long as there is a valid gas management process. So there are two questions arise:

1. Gas management rule and process of tank use.
2. Do you breath from the long hose and when (from what point).

I would like to hear opinion and solutions for these.

The same gas management rule applies to independents as it does with manifolded doubles. 1/3 of your gas supply in, 1/3 of your gas supply out and 1/3 in reserve for emergencies as a minimum.

How you do on independents is only important that each cylinder has the above rule applied separately. IE 1/3 from each cylinder on the way in, etc. How you do it is not as important IMHO. Personally I switch regs every 200-300 psi. It is not needed to switch that often it is just the habit that I developed. I rarely look at my gauges before I switch it just becomes habit.

Bobby

[jj1987]

2. Do you breath from the long hose and when (from what point)..

I don't believe the agencies have a set rule for this even with doubles that have been around forever. I've still seen classes where students and instructors stuff the long hose. I wouldn't see this as something that would hold up adopting SM, since there's no standard for BM.