Exceeding one's training

[phillip1]

I was wondering what could push someone to exceed his or her level of training, with all the information available today it seems suicidal.
I know that in my case I had in mind diving all the unexplored caves here in the DR. I took things very slow and after completing my full cave training I would not even think of going into an unexplored cave because I had little experience and I was scared to go into an unknown cave.
I did allot of dives in the known caves here, and after building my experience and confidence very slowly I started to venture into unexplored systems, and on my first exploration dive I found myself a good distance from the entrance in an unknown cave in zero viz for the entire way out, I was nervous but I also had prepared myself for this, so it was not a really big deal. Had I done this dive right after completing my cave course I am pretty sure it might have taken a turn for the worse.
I think that in addition to a deep respect for the cave environment one needs to have a certain level of fear, I think that fear is your friend it will keep your dive within your comfort zone and will keep you from exceeding your limits.
I gradually built my confidence over many dives and now I do 90% of my dives in unexplored caves some really gnarly ones, I still have fear and fear has helped me keep a very clear limit in my goals, I think it has kept me alive.
People who have no fear or respect for how dangerous a cave can be will suddenly find themselves in a situation way beyond what they can handle and it is unfortunately at that very moment that fear will turn to panic and tragedy will strike.
I am a lifelong big wave surfer and in surfing there is this "go for it, push yourself" kind of attitude, I think that in cave diving it should be the exact opposite, "don't push yourself"

[Kelly Jessop]

Unfortunately,too far,too fast,too soon is a contributing cause of trained cave diving fatalities. Jeff Bozanic's last presentation I saw has statistical evidence pointing to that.

[Gary]

I suppose I was among the worst in my early days for exceeding my training. I received excellent training at cavern and kept my cavern card until I bought doubles. (early 90's)

My reasons:
Lots of diving, incremental experience, distrust of certification agencies, distrust of politics of cave diving, money going to diving instead of certifications.

Possibly most important: I had continual contact with my instructor thru the time period, he knew what I was doing and never said I needed to do anything differently.

Relearning/redeveloping everything myself was not the safest or fastest way of getting it done. It did provide a strong foundation of experience though.

What I think I missed out on:
Faster skill development - an instructor and certification upgrade every 10-16dives would have lead me into new skills and techniques at a optimum pace.
Different perspectives: I think changing instructors gives one a wider introduction to cave diving techniques and opinions.
Better understanding of the caves.
A sounding board or where my skills were and what kind of caves were in my ability.


However, a cave diver quite frequently will not know what caves are in their ability. I suppose that many caves are guided/restricted and not meeting the entrance requirements should be a clue that one is not ready. These days many caves are described on-line and a great deal of information is available - but before all we had was water management reports, scouting, word of mouth, Guide to Underwater FL, and advice from one's instructor (infrequently used).

[Marc Bryan]

People who have no fear or respect for how dangerous a cave can be will suddenly find themselves in a situation way beyond what they can handle and it is unfortunately at that very moment that fear will turn to panic and tragedy will strike.

It is not just "no fear" of the caves, it is also complacency, especially for experienced divers. It is very easy in a familiar cave to get complacent.

"Oh, I don't need to do this, or that. I have been in here/done this dive 100 times."

[MengTze]

.....too far,too fast,too soon is a contributing cause of trained cave diving fatalities......

And that is the crutch of the conundrum.......... how do you know what is too far, too fast and too soon? What counts for me does not necessarily count for you. And only when the SH@T hits the fan will you know that it the case or not..... but then it may be too late......

[Bob Cree]

an instructor and certification upgrade every 10-16dives would have lead me into new skills and techniques at a optimum pace.

Different perspectives: I think changing instructors gives one a wider introduction to cave diving techniques and opinions.

Absolutely agree.

Todays zero to hero ignores the first and therefore I believe should be forbidden by the training agencies. It gives the false sense of security that leads to exceeding limits. After all, how many people are really ready to handle a zero vis exit all the way the day after finishing such training. The most common complaint supporting the zero to hero approach is from the folks coming from out of the state citing cost issues. Please note where I am located. Fortunately I had a really good mentor who made sure I was ready before taking on the next level.

My mentor also gave me the sage advice you mentioned to use a different instructor as I progressed. Point well taken and done. I highly encourage this. In fact, I further think it should be considered as a requirement set by the training agencies since it truly does make a huge difference.

I was really lucky to have such a good mentor. It might be interesting to have a somewhat formalized mentorship program sponsored by the various agencies to help new folks along the way. They will also help keep you in line and let you know when you are going to far to soon.

Get a good mentor.

Bob

[Danseur]

Now I took a zero to hero, and I also took several other classes from several other cave instructors, from sidemount to GUE.

What's missing isn't class protocols, it's judgment and restraint. An 8 day course and then a solo air dive in a 350' cave on Andros is suicide. Having a clue is not the exclusive domain of a 5 year training tract. It helps, but not exclusive to. Building progressive experience is still intrinsic in my diving and I saw that having MORE training and MORE guidance was a GOOD thing, provided that I don't take it as license to go to the end of the universe just because I have a C-card that "allows" me to, but as a license to learn as it was intended.

Judgment, Caution, Restraint, Planning, Protocol, Automatic Responses drilled into ones core... a lack of Hubris...

Morons would gravitate to a zero to hero, but again they are not inextricably intertwined. There are idiots everywhere, and I make extensive efforts to make sure I am not one of them.

Nomex on....

[FW]

I agree with Danseur, that zero to hero isn't necessarily bad, but I have dived with several graduates that might as well have had no training at all.

[w ripley]

This is a good thread.

I understand the point you are making and totally agree.

However, the title of this thread wants old timers like me to immediately fire off a protest post. It's the word "training." Because, if you listen to instructors or "training" agencies, they will tell you that you will need to take a course in order to put on your fins, your drysuit, etc. I am sure you understand. Most of us have a drawer full of cards that we were told we needed but ended up being something that just generated income for a shop or an instructor.

Hey, I love instructors, they do a great job, and they need to make a living. Still, the "training" for our sport ranges from being very important (full cave) to being down right useless (night diving).

So, I would have preferred that the word "training" in your post would have been "experience," "personal comfort levels," or something on that order.

Truthfully, most of us push our diving thresholds all the time. It's how we grow. Many who came before us were basically on our own, and there's still "testing" going on every day with new equipment and configurations. And, each of us will push this or that to add to the body of diving knowledge.

There aren't courses for penetrating one or two miles back into a cave, anymore than there are courses for going to 400 fsw. Yet, many of us do it based on our "experience" or "personal comfort levels."

Now, with the growth of the rebreather market, we're being told the same thing that OC divers have been sold for years, and that is you need training to do anything. Tirmix is a great example. Hence, my reference to a protest post.

If you don't understand something, then find a good instructor and take a course. If you understand something, then go as far as you feel comfortable and turn around. Planning is the key to every successful dive.

Yes, I dive past my "training" on most every dive. However, I never dive past my "experience" or personal comfort levels," ever.

Again, good thread. Just had to say something before some instructor nails this thread up on the wall behind his desk and points to it to every aspiring diver who walks in.

[Line Squirrel]

Excellent post, well said Bill.