Eagles Nest to Repeat?

Saturday I was on my way into Orange Grove, stepped aside to let a group of people get out, but was shocked to see a very... VERY young boy hop out (of who's confirmed age won't be mentioned), followed by his father (an instructor of unknown rating). The team had just completed their dive to lower orange (to 90') when they got out and were greeted by mom, who also appears to be a Tec diver.



I don't know what was more shocking, the fact that the parents should understand the risk of this type of situation better, being (or appearing to be) Tec divers, or the fact that the recent Eagles Nest accident didn't open their eyes at all. I also got word that the same team was seen coming out of P1 today.



Unfortunately I did not get a name for the father, our team had intentions of reporting them, but our biggest concern is for the safety of this child.



You know who you are, you know it isn't right, and your child will be the one who suffers!

http://i.imgur.com/76tVwoI.gif

I don't know what the depth limit is, but here's my cavern card from when I was 12. Looking back it wasn't that bright, but the agencies do allow it.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/89/kgv8.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640...0/547/aiwa.jpg

Hell post the age, what difference does it make. Maybe the parents don't like the kid. Spivey proved that.

Pictures would be even better…

Dive safe,

Celia

Was there, according to mom kid was 10... He had small yellow doubles and what seemed to be a custom DUI drysuit.

Same rant, different decade :)
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aq...?25226,subject

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Same rant, different decade :)
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aq...?25226,subject

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B-)

The age is not important, but he still has a couple years till he gets a card like that, point being he shouldn't be there.



But I do think cavern divers should at least be in middle school first


Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk

This same team was diving at Peacock P1 today 1/26 and was seen in the cavern zone. The boy diving smaller yellow double tanks and I believe a red wing. I understand he is 10 years old and if so I don't believe any agency certifies for overhead at this age. He was lugging his own tanks on a cart through the parking lot . To me he is not a big 10 year old and some people in the park were guessing his age to be 8 - 9. It's a little shocking to see. It kinda felt like test to see what cave divers would or would not do when presented with this. The Park Ranger was later notified with descriptions.

Can anyone with proper knowledge let me know if there's an agency that does certify 10yr olds for overhead.

We were told 10 also. Such a shame. I would guess only 8-9 also. The cavern was a mess today. More than a handful of divers that really need some (much) practice...

Does Lower Orange Grove meet the definition of a cavern zone?

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

Does Lower Orange Grove meet the definition of a cavern zone?

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Whether it does or does not, the depth they went to (reported in OP at 90 ft), is well beyond the depth limit recommendations set forth in most agencies standards, for children 10 & 11 yrs old at 40 ft & 12- 15 yrs old at 60 ft. The father, if he is an instructor should know this. As far as I know, most agencies limit the minimum age for cavern to be 15. Then again, it is his kid....

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

Does Lower Orange Grove meet the definition of a cavern zone?

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Yes.

Open water divers may dive Orange Grove, so technically he could be ok (if he didn't go below 40', and if he was the age of twelve to legally dive in a Florida state park). But P1 is not open to open water divers where they were today from my understanding...

I do hereby swear that I will stop putting those "special" mushrooms in my spaghetti sauce because I saw a hobbit exiting the cavern at P1 today... and I'm freakin out man!

Don't the parents realize they're going to have to purchase 8-10 custom drysuits for him over the next several years? Judging by his size, at least 2 or 3 before his testicles drop.

So you look over the fence and see the nextdoor kid, a 4th grader, with a pile of brush and yard waste, a gas can and some matches. His father is showing him how to safely pour on the gas and light the fire while his mom watches from the house. What do you do? You know the father is aware of the danger of gasoline fumes, spilled gas, putting the cap on the can and moving it well away from the fire before lighting but the kid is ten and doesn't fully understand this, nor does he have any experience with fires but he's done this safely now a couple of times. You can just picture the day dad isn't around and the child comes home from school to "practice by himself". Again what do you do, call the fire dept and report a potential fire, talk to the mom or dad, ignore it and walk away?

Such was the situation that presented itself this weekend at Peacock, what should you do? Speak to the parents, tell the ranger, call PADI, TDI, NACD, NSFA about the ten year old kid diving doubles in a cavern to 90'. I feel somewhat guilty as all I did was speak to them and gather a few facts but did nothing really "proactive", however given the differing thoughts and opinions of others that were there it seems there really is no right answer, though the thoughts of another christmas present and more natural selection are diffficult to bear . . . . . . . . . . .

I saw this same kid. I was going to say something to the mother but some other cave diver did that quite tactfully. He asked what the cave conditions were like and the mother of the child said that they were just in the cavern zone but that her husband and another guy were diving in the cave.

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Originally Posted by Tiago

Can anyone with proper knowledge let me know if there's an agency that does certify 10yr olds for overhead.

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PADI Cavern is 18 yr. TDI Cavern is 18 tr, 15 with parental permission.

If the parents read this, here are some things to think on:

1) Can the he calculate thirds with dissimilar cylinders... on his own?
2) ... Can you? Should your gear fail, are you planning to rely on him to save gas for you? Send little Jimmy on his way without you?
3) Would he know what to do should you choose to do so? Or be capable of executing?
4) Are you willing to accept the affect that experience would have on him the rest of his life? Live yours knowing YOU took his?
5) "It's only cavern!" Yeah, for now... at the age of <10, but what about when he is 12? Jumps? Deco? Solo?

What is the rush to get him down there?
Do you not plan to live long enough to dive next to him a few years from now...?
As 'Tec' Divers, you should both know that all the skills we do ARE necessary and serve purpose. Each change in technique comes after someone died doing something else... and look how far cave diving has come!
I'm no expert. I'm 20 and barely full cave, but I KNOW when I need to opt out of a dive and have much better judgement now (compared to younger years, like 10), and even used it to skip a dive during class this weekend (at peacock). So I KNOW you guys have better judgement!

...if not, leave this on the dash of your black scuba van:
www.IUCRR.org/emergency.html
Larry Green
(cell) 352-359-2650

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Originally Posted by thatcampbellkid

(... and if he was the age of twelve to legally dive in a Florida state park).

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Where does it say you must be twelve to dive in a state park? Most open water agencies certify Junior Open Water at ten.

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Originally Posted by thatcampbellkid

I'm no expert. I'm 20 and barely full cave...........

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Well, it is obvious that not a parent. Right now in this country, a 9 year old can enter competitive snowboarding and skiing. 8 year old, sanctioned go cart racing. Have you seen the mini dirt bikes, or been to a motocross lately? And that does not count gymnastics, karate, kite boards, pee wee football, skateboards, ultralight aircraft, little league, soccer, junior running clubs, jet skis, and turning 10 year olds loose with guns in the woods.

If and when you are a parent, you get to choose how you raise your children (at least until the state takes them), until then, if you said this to me, I would tell you to F.O. really fast.

James, that aquanaut post is pure win, completely relevant..and a gi3 post at that... You win the internet today.

10 seems a bit young, however the kids age is just a symptom; it's most likely dad's lack of common sense and large ego that is in play and most terrifying. Generally these factors point to the fact he'll not listen to anyone's advice.
Did anyone talk to dad?

Maybe dad is just too cutting edge for all of us; put the kid in sidemount 50's, no mount, and he could open up new cave! Think of the possibilities!.. :(

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Originally Posted by jj1987

here's my cavern card from when I was 12.

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I was in tenth grade before I hit 5'3", 117 pounds.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, it is obvious that not a parent. Right now in this country, a 9 year old can enter competitive snowboarding and skiing. 8 year old, sanctioned go cart racing. Have you seen the mini dirt bikes, or been to a motocross lately? And that does not count gymnastics, karate, kite boards, pee wee football, skateboards, ultralight aircraft, little league, soccer, junior running clubs, jet skis, and turning 10 year olds loose with guns in the woods.

If and when you are a parent, you get to choose how you raise your children (at least until the state takes them), until then, if you said this to me, I would tell you to F.O. really fast.

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And this is the dilemma of a free society isn't it, at what point do you override the lack of judgement of parents that place their kids in these situations, to protect the child from the parent who has no judgement themselves. I successfully raised two healthy children that now exhibit very good judgement, I have also done some really "hairy ####" myself over the years, however it was done as an adult fully understanding the risks. A nine year old on a motorbike racing around a track or a ten year old in a cavern only knows he's having fun, he does not understand the risks, and it would be typical of an irresponsible parent to tell a more responsible adult to "FO" for trying to protect the child.......

The entire family needs to have their cavern/cave cards pulled for this stunt and I further recommend parental counseling.
Way beyond stupid once again....

Scary. Does anyone know if;
1. the ranger was able to talk with the family and
2. if the family had their c-cards(and what the level was) displayed in their vehicle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, it is obvious that not a parent. Right now in this country, a 9 year old can enter competitive snowboarding and skiing. 8 year old, sanctioned go cart racing. Have you seen the mini dirt bikes, or been to a motocross lately? And that does not count gymnastics, karate, kite boards, pee wee football, skateboards, ultralight aircraft, little league, soccer, junior running clubs, jet skis, and turning 10 year olds loose with guns in the woods.

If and when you are a parent, you get to choose how you raise your children (at least until the state takes them), until then, if you said this to me, I would tell you to F.O. really fast.

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Rightfully so, you're entitled to your opinion, but you would be ignorant to say that this team doesn't pose a danger to the other divers in the area and inconsiderate to carry on.

And yes I have, I grew up as one of those kids. I was a competitive gymnast for several years, a trampolinist, played many contact sports, competed in national rifle and pistol competitions and completed ground school for solo skydiving. None of these activities require an advanced understanding of things, I would compare it to getting your private pilots license. Just because I can maneuver a plane doesn't entitle me to fly it over other people.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Where does it say you must be twelve to dive in a state park? Most open water agencies certify Junior Open Water at ten.

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I thought I had heard it somewhere recently as a state law, but called this morning and found no such regulation, so I guess the only rules broken were the open water dive at P1 and the depth at Orange...

But as far as I've heard, no one spoke to the father and I did not recall seeing their cards on the dash. They drive a black scuba van with a busted front right light, apparently semi local, but we attempted to find the name of the father to report him to the agency he instructs for (neither of which we know, mothers name might have been Spring?).

Based on pictures posted to Facebook, I'm fairly certain I have done one very interesting dive with the dad. I don't think you'll be able to tell him anything.

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Originally Posted by firemedic1015

Based on pictures posted to Facebook, I'm fairly certain I have done one very interesting dive with the dad. I don't think you'll be able to tell him anything.

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My team theorized that the guy is an open water instructor :clapper
But they are doing it 'the right way'...

I would bet they got fills at Dive Outpost or Bill's. Either one of these shops should be able to tell you the fathers name as I would think they were filled in his name.

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Originally Posted by caveflyer

Speak to the parents, tell the ranger, call PADI, TDI, NACD, NSFA about the ten year old kid diving doubles in a cavern to 90'. I feel somewhat guilty as all I did was speak to them and gather a few facts but did nothing really "proactive", however given the differing thoughts and opinions of others that were there it seems there really is no right answer, though the thoughts of another christmas present and more natural selection are diffficult to bear . . . . . . . . . . .

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Originally Posted by thatcampbellkid

I thought I had heard it somewhere recently as a state law, but called this morning and found no such regulation, so I guess the only rules broken were the open water dive at P1 and the depth at Orange...

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I am not sure that reporting the incident to an agency would do a lot of good. All the agency can really do is penalize an instructor who breaks standards while instructing. I do not believe there is anything an agency can really do outside of instruction. A few months ago PADI sent a pretty strongly stated message to Belize saying that they needed do do something through their own organizations to regulate the unsafe diving practices at the Blue Hole, as in everyone regularly taking new OW divers to 150 feet. They really have no actual power to do anything other than recommend. All their depth "requirements" for different levels of scuba have no more power than recommendations, and they have no authority to deal with violations outside of instruction.

This was emphasized in the PADI regional meeting I attended yesterday. There was a recent lawsuit in which PADI was included in which an instructor in an instructional setting violated standards. PADI argued that they do not hire instructors and they do not actively supervise instructors, so they could not be held responsible for instructor errors. The jury in that trial disagreed, and PADI had to cough up $2 million. As a result, they have added new language to all related documents, including the liability releases, emphasizing that separation. And that is for an instructional situation. They clearly have and want no authority over non-instructional situations, and I strongly suspect every other agency feels the same way.

If you want someone to have authority to deal with this, then it is really going to have to be governmental. Is that what you want?

The sad truth is that no regulations, laws, or rules are going to stop stupid people from being stupid. At the end of the day, people are going to violate the limits of their training and the worst thing that could happen is that they get away with it, then they get braver and braver until they get dead. There is little we can do to stop them.

What really pisses me off is that parents would take their children and put them in this kind of danger....the kids don't know what they don't know and the parents should very much so know better. But they have gotten away with breaking rules and guidelines so they think they are just agency BS.....and then we have another incident that could be prevented.

At then end of the day there will be repeats, and we will have the same conversation again, and it will repeat.....because stupid people will be stupid.

That's sad to hear. I don't care what people do, you want to dive a cave without training go for it. It's not my problem until it affects site access.

That said taking anyone under the age of maybe 15 into a cave is absurd and seems grossly irresponsible...I can't imagine seeing a 10 year old on scuba period nevertheless walking to the water wearing doubles. Selfish dad.

It looks to me that rules were broken in the state park if the kid was not a certified cavern diver or in a class at the time. So if this rule was not broken then he had to be certified. Does any agency allow 10 year olds to be cavern certified? If the father just wrote the kid a card and the agency the card was issued through doesn't allow certification of 10 year olds then the agency he teaches through should definitely get involved. I have heard of agencies giving exemptions for some young divers. Hopefully the truth will come out.

I don't know the divers and so I don't automatically assume they don't know what they are doing. I started diving young and cave diving young. I went through the training and understood it just as well as the rest of the divers who were older than me. No one questioned me at any parks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, fond memories of George's prose!

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Same rant, different decade :)
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aq...?25226,subject

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So, how is the "See something--Say something" movement going?

I got a message talking documenting an encounter with our friend, which I'll let you guys think on, but feel that bringing this topic up was the right thing for the kid.


" My dive buddy and I met him in the parking lot at Ginnie one day. We were between dives and he was by himself, he was diving sidemount and had a scooter. I had recently started sidemounting and was eager to see how others rigged their gear and was developing an interest in scooters. We struck up a conversation and ended up adding him to our team for a dive. He said that he was a cave DPV instructor and part of US Cave Diving Team http://uscavedivingteam.com/. He was also wearing a DPV wrist band. We suggested mainline to hill 400 jump, make the jump, and swim to thirds. He got a confused look on his face, held up one finger to indicate, "wait a minute", went to his truck and pulled out a NSS/CDS workbook with the maps in the back. He promptly flipped to the map of peacock springs and started mumbling, "hill 400" and trying to find it on the map. We politely informed him that he was on the wrong map and showed him where it was on the Ginnie map. He said, "hmm, I haven't been there but we can do whatever, I'll show you the Toxic Waste Tunnel on the way out and you all can drive my scooter around the gallery on the exit." Excited about the prospect of getting to drive a scooter but totally wigged out about diving with him we geared up.

Upon entering the water it was pretty obvious that he was a hot mess. He dropped his scooter in the gallery and we swam up the goldline to the hill 400 with him in the middle of the team. I'm not sure why he didn't just follow buddy's route but he stayed in the flow, working pretty hard, the whole time. Every 30 seconds or so he would turn around and look at me, giving me the ok sign despite me keeping my light on the floor below him. When he would turn to look at me it would cause the shoulder pull dump on his sidemount rig to dump air and he would head for the cave floor. I tried to signal what was happening with his bc and that both of his backup lights were on to no avail. We made painfully slow progress and turned the dive a couple of hundred feet up the hill 400 line.

On the exit, he showed us the "Toxic Waste Tunnel" that we, and most everyone else, know as the lips bypass. We spent a few min driving the scoot in the gallery and started to exit via the eye. When we stopped at 30' to begin our deco, _______ waived goodbye, hit the trigger on the scooter and disappeared out of the cave. Last I saw, he was heading straight up in the eye under power. We were quite shocked and did our deco as usual. When we made it to the little devils stairs, he met us in street clothes and said "thanks for the dive guy's, I've got to head out, I'm all packed up." "By the way, do you know why my computer is beeping?" He then showed us a very upset VR3. We told him that he had probably missed some deco... He shrugged and said "well I feel ok, thanks again for the dive" and off he went.

We were obviously shocked by the entire event and were looking for a hidden camera or something. It was a totally surreal event. The next day we ran into a guy driving a van with the same ______________________ name on the side and asked him if he knew or worked with ______ and the first thing out of his mouth was "What has he done now?" We told him the story and he confirmed that it was par for the course with ____________.

His current escapades in Peacock don't surprise me at all. "

Wow. That's nuts. Wonder how many times he blew his deco? Someday it will bite him in the ass... bummer, hope someone tracks him down.


Garth

Aggree with John re; post #43. Bringing this up WAS the right thing to do. Now how do you save the kid from the dad to preclude another christmas 2013 event, or is he [dad] entiled to his freedom to do whatever he wants to himself and his kid?

Hopefully a public shaming such as this may have some effect, maybe on the childs mother if not the father - as I did hear her say at OG on Saturday "look after him" or words similar.........

Out of curiosity I just looked up NAUI standards and under Cavern it states, "You must be at least 18 years of age to enroll in the NAUI Cavern Diver course. You must also be a certified NAUI Advanced Scuba Diver (or its equivalent). A NAUI EANx certification is highly recommended but not required."

I know it has been asked already but are there any agencies that allow 10 year olds to be certified as Cavern divers?

I got paired up with this guy 4 - 5 years ago at Ginnie. I definitely believe the report above. He came back from the dive I did with him with something like 800 psi. He made the comment to me after the dive that I was a strong swimmer and he just about ran out of air trying to keep up with me. He is the one that eventually turned the dive and why he didn't turn on 1/3rds I don't know. I asked him when we got back what he was doing not turning the dive sooner and he said I figured I could use some of your gas if I had a problem. I've never seen him since that day. Hope someone reports him to NAUI.

Dear Mr. Shaw,

Following this mornings conversation it is with great sadness that I write to you concerning NAUI OW Instructor # 51486.

On Saturday at around midday I saw a diver at the Wes Skiles Peacock Springs State Park who looked exactly like the first one in the following link, from where I got the above information;

http://uscavedivingteam.com/?page_id=27

He was seen in the water by myself and other members of my group with a young child on SCUBA at depths of up to 90FFW in both the open water and carvern portions of Orange Grove Spring. The child was wearing a DUI dry suit and two AL50's in a "doubles" configuration with backplate, wing and harness. I spoke with the childs mother who informed me that the child was ten years old.

If you require further information you may contact me on 407 616 5445

Regards


Carol Sugars

US Cave Diving Team?

I once saw a t-shirt with a picture of a shovel and wheelbarrow, the back end of a horse, and a steaming pile of horsie poo, with the caption

"US EQUESTRIAN (stall cleaning) TEAM"

Ohio has Children's Services to contact for issues involving children. They (Children's Services) will do the investigating. Does Fla have the same?

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Originally Posted by caveflyer

Aggree with John re; post #43. Bringing this up WAS the right thing to do. Now how do you save the kid from the dad to preclude another christmas 2013 event, or is he [dad] entiled to his freedom to do whatever he wants to himself and his kid?

Hopefully a public shaming such as this may have some effect, maybe on the childs mother if not the father - as I did hear her say at OG on Saturday "look after him" or words similar.........

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maybe he will respond?

Folks, this is getting out of control. Some of these acquisitions are absurd to say the least, however somewhat comical. To set the record straight, Not that I owe any of you an explanation, My training consist of multiple organizations at all levels, full cave instructor available to teach at many levels, an avid Rebreather diver, and have had more training hours logged than most of you combined in actual water time. I have been diving my entire life, well, since 18 now 42, and have written training programs for several different organizations. I spend more time in the Caves of Florida and Mexico than most people will spend their entire life. My boy, who is 10, has been under my direction for MORE than 3 years now starting in basic O/W, Adv O/W in many different caverns with me, and yes, he's better than most. He's extremely bright, and has a love for cavern and ocean diving.
As far as some of the slanderous threads I've read, I do not cave dive with anyone other than students, I only dive with a few select "High end cavers, Scientists, and Marine Biologist". For the most....my immediate family, wife (Caver and Instructor), Daughter who is 16, son which is 10.
We have consulted with Diving Scientists at the University of Florida, Florida State University, and other Universities with concerns of his developing skeletal structure with the possibilities of nitrogen bubble damage to tissue and skeletal system. All are in agreement with what we are doing at depths above 70 ffw, and a slightly elevated PO2 for short periods. We are also in the process of purchasing a Doppler system to measure his tissue of N2, simply because of his love for diving, as we want to maintain his developing body.
The moral of my replying to this thread is simple: If you don't know what your talking about, don't make false claim against myself and my family. My wife, son, and myself are very safe, and will continue to be safe in all aspects. There is no one that will take our love and passion away from practicing our passions in life.
Oh, one more thing, most of our Seniors who developed the concepts of safe cave diving all started caving in there early years of childhood under the direction of very intelligent people. Our legacy's made all of this possible! Without keeping this passion and the love for the sport going, it could soon start to die off. Who's more suited to continue the legacy than our youth!
I have said my peace, and I will not speak again of this thread. Thanks to all of you who have supported me, and special thanks to the Scientist who believe in what we are doing, and the continued efforts of further research and training in this great sport!


Marty Watson

So is concern for the welfare of a child enough to allow suspension of Rule 6 of this forum? Just curious.

Marty posted while I was writing the above. Let me state that I do NOT agree with allowing a 10 year old in a cavern by any means. But I am kind of surprised by the personal attacks against Marty being allowed, as well.

Rule 6; Comments about individuals, agencies, organizations, political parties and businesses will be removed if found to be inflammatory or cause the discussion to be uncivil.

"if found to be inflammatory or cause the discussion to be uncivil."; I'd say what has happened here is neither of these, it was fact based and civil.

Marty,

I think you may be misunderstanding this thread's original intent.

This was the first example of "See Something, Say Something".

I am interested in which agency your son has earned his cavern certification or is in class to earn. The reason I ask this is simple. You were diving on state park land which has some simple rules posted. Unless your son was in a class through an agency for cavern or already has his cavern certification, then he cannot dive in the locations that he was witnessed diving.

This is exactly what the "See Something, Say Something" idea is all about, right?

And I would agree that your posts did not; however, when people are making comments like "US Cave (recovery team practice subjects) Diving Team?" a line has been crossed IMHO. If "recovery team practice subjects" is not inflammatory I guess I just don't understand the meaning of the word.

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Originally Posted by caveflyer

Rule 6; Comments about individuals, agencies, organizations, political parties and businesses will be removed if found to be inflammatory or cause the discussion to be uncivil.

"if found to be inflammatory or cause the discussion to be uncivil."; I'd say what has happened here is neither of these, it was fact based and civil.

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Originally Posted by Marty Watson

My boy, who is 10, has been under my direction for MORE than 3 years now starting in basic O/W, Adv O/W in many different caverns with me, and yes, he's better than most.

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What agency allows scuba training at seven?

Unfortunately based on the attitude in his response and chest thumping mentality of being in more caves around the world than most of us, nothing will get Marty to see the other side of the coin here. It seems the mentality is that he's an accomplished diver with x, x, x certs and training credentials so the rules don't necessarily apply to his family.

His mentality is a direct opposite of one of my respected instructors. He's an accomplished diver with ridiculous experience and training credentials, yet he never speaks of any of it. His daughter had to wait until she was well above the minimum certs requirementsfor him to allow her to get certified, because she needed to prove she had the wits to be a thinking, safe diver.

For some reason I keep thinking of this as an absurd rendition of Bill Cosby's rant when his son pisses him off and he tells him, " I brought you in this world and I can take you out of it."

Marty, Please remove my image of the Cow Springs basin (which is currently the main image) on your http://uscavedivingteam.com/ website. This photo is being used without permission and I wish no association with you or your team. (also sent via PM)

Thanks,
Brandon

I apologize for harsh comments earlier, but my intention was simply to raise awareness of what I had seen, I was just so blown away that this was happening and didn't understand it. I'm glad you've gone out of the way to make this work, but I just believe the rules are in place for a reason.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

I got paired up with this guy 4 - 5 years ago at Ginnie. I definitely believe the report above. He came back from the dive I did with him with something like 800 psi. He made the comment to me after the dive that I was a strong swimmer and he just about ran out of air trying to keep up with me. ........

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Originally Posted by thatcampbellkid

I got a message ....... We were between dives and he was by himself, he was diving sidemount and had a scooter. I had recently started sidemounting and was eager to see how others rigged their gear and was developing an interest in scooters. We struck up a conversation and ended up adding him to our team for a dive......... We politely informed him that he was on the wrong map and showed him where it was on the Ginnie map. He said, "hmm, I haven't been there but we can do whatever, I'll show you the Toxic Waste Tunnel on the way out and you all can drive my scooter around the gallery on the exit." Excited about the prospect of getting to drive a scooter but totally wigged out about diving with him we geared up.

Upon entering the water it was pretty obvious that he was a hot mess. ......His current escapades in Peacock don't surprise me at all. "

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C'mon.... I don't know Marty at all but are you guys sure this is the same guy? Besides the age involved I really only see a hint of what I consider abusive at most and irresponsible at least. He says that the effects of diving on his 10 year old are unknown so much so that he is purchasing a doppler device to monitor ... (maybe experiment) those effects on his son. I dunno maybe Marty is on the cutting edge of dive medicine and age but I'm more than a bit worried when someone sounds as if they are performing medical experiments on their children. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong...

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Originally Posted by T. Bix

C'mon.... I don't know Marty at all but are you guys sure this is the same guy? Besides the age involved I really only see a hint of what I consider abusive at most and irresponsible at least. He says that the effects of diving on his 10 year old are unknown so much so that he is purchasing a doppler device to monitor ... (maybe experiment) those effects on his son. I dunno maybe Marty is on the cutting edge of dive medicine and age but I'm more than a bit worried when someone sounds as if they are performing medical experiments on their children. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong...

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While I don't have an issue with a 10 year old diving (heck, that's how old I was when I started diving)--I do have a serious issue with someone taking a 10 year old who isn't, and cannot at that age be cavern certified into the cavern at Peacock--which is in direct violation of park rules. That's the real issue.

I think I need to mention a few things here. I do not like it, I do not condone it, and I would not want to take my child into a cavern at 10yrs old. However, I think that comparing this to the Eagle's Nest disaster is reaching a little bit. First of all, they're well within rec depth limits. Secondly, even if the dad wasn't a Cave Instructor, he's still much more qualified than OW-only. When I was that kid's age, I did a few dives to >80ft. I'm now 6'6" (which the doctors estimated at age 3). If it stunted my growth, then I'm not upset about it :D.

However, rules were broken and that shouldn't have happened. And then the chest-thumping. That's NOT a great attitude to have. Fairly indicative of a scary attitude to have. My dad let me grow up doing a lot of dumb things and making a lot of my own mistakes. However, I was not allowed to breach any set of agreed upon rules or standards in doing so....including age limits, even though I was always big for my age. I guess that's really what this comes down to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MacLeod

While I don't have an issue with a 10 year old diving (heck, that's how old I was when I started diving)--I do have a serious issue with someone taking a 10 year old who isn't, and cannot at that age be cavern certified into the cavern at Peacock--which is in direct violation of park rules. That's the real issue.

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This is the only real issue.

No one here can/should critique his parenting. Hell, my kids are already fish in water, and will probably be diving if they want to at an age when I (as the parent) decide they are ready.

The ones on here questioning his parental choices should honestly step back. It's obvious he cares for his kids and takes good care of them, unlike a LOT of parents we see daily in our routines. Who are "we" to judge that?

There is no data that suggests what he is doing is inherently dangerous except for a few items of concern. Maybe those items of concern were not thought out, maybe they were. That's on him.

The only issue at hand here is that he had taken his child to a State Park which has clearly posted rules. Those rules include showing certifications (placing on the dash) for all of those who wish to do the dives allowed on the park property. If he did not do that (show the c-card) for his son, then he was in violation. Simple as that.

Do I agree with all the hoopla around this? Not really. Was it bound to happen? Sure. He had to have expected it. The minimum age for the majority of agencies for cave training is 18 years old. Some have gotten waivers for 16. Some agencies may even allow younger (14).

Don't kid yourself, he knew this kind of reaction was possible and may have been seeking it. Who knows. Either way, he will know that when he returns to a State Park with his son, he will need his certification to be displayed. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is this how everyone else sees it?

This "See Something, Say Something" thing is what caused this hoopla. When all that was needed was a simple conversation with the father (which doesn't sound like something that happened) to remind him that the state requires that the rules be followed on state park property. Pretty simple, eh?

I am sure. I called a buddy and verified it before I posted it. Unless it is 2 people with the same name working for the same company. He was in a white company van the day I met him. I have heard other stories but this was the one and only time I met him. His attitude from his post speaks volumes in my opinion. Sounds like the rules are only for others. I can't believe the many certification agencies he teaches for aren't disassociating themselves from him. He never offered proof that his son was certified only that it's okay because of his qualifications and experience. The kid is probably a better diver than me but at least I am legal to dive at Peacock. I have broken some rules and sneaked into some sites that aren't open for one reason or another but if I was ever caught I would have owned up to it. I definitely wouldn't have said it is okay because of my experience or training. What do you tell a cop when you get caught speeding? Oh it's okay I am professional race car driver. I tell them the truth I wasn't paying attention or I was late for something. In my opinion he would have been better off saying my bad I didn't think things through. Now if some agency will allow a 10 year old kid to be certified in cavern diving then that is a completely different set of circumstances but since he has offered no proof I am leaning towards the assumption the kid is not certified.

People need to learn to mind their own business... :roll:

Brian

I wrote out about 50 sentences in four paragraphs...then deleted it. Benthic said it much better.

+1

skip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benthic

People need to learn to mind their own business... :roll:

Brian

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by skip

I wrote out about 50 sentences in four paragraphs...then deleted it. Benthic said it much better.

+1

skip

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I am detecting dissension in "see something, say something" land.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

I am detecting dissension in "see something, say something" land.

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Clearly the person in question is aware of current events and public opinion.

He obviously read the thread and stated his position.

Something was seen and something was said (and said over and over again, do I detect a dead horse here?-no pun intended).

+2 on minding your own business...

Dive safe,

Celia

I agree with minding your own business, except that there is an obvious violation of the property owners rules. Land owner relations extend to state parks every bit as much a private property.

We have consulted with Diving Scientists at the University of Florida, Florida State University, and other Universities with concerns of his developing skeletal structure with the possibilities of nitrogen bubble damage to tissue and skeletal system. All are in agreement with what we are doing at depths above 70 ffw, and a slightly elevated PO2 for short periods.


Marty Watson[/QUOTE]

As a fellow NAUI instructor,I would be interested to know who these scientists are and if they are validated by studies(not!)
I personally will not train any student less than 12 years of age ....

I have a flash for all of you. Minding your own business and butting out HAS NEVER BEEN APPROPRIATE for this sport. Since my first scuba dive in 1963, it has always been understood and ingrained in everyon during instruction, that we are stewards responsible for policing our sport, less the gov. steps in with the real scuba police and does it for us! To knowlingly violate the established rules, particularly on state property, is just inviting further regulation and/or restriction! So there, let your conscience be your guide.

So what rule did he break? From what I see he is a cavern and intro instructor, at least that's how I read the posted website.
Now if an instructor teaches or guides he does the same thing, he takes ow diver into overhead. We've all done it when we took the cavern class, correct?

You must have missed like 7 pages of replies. To dive in P1, you have to either be certified or in a class. Since he's too young to start ANY agency's Cavern Diver course, he's not in any class....instructor father or not. That's clearly in violation of the rules.

gsxr1997, I don't see how your comments are related to the conversation but.






see
http://www.naui.org/recreational_divers.aspx


"As long as you are 10 years or older and in good physical condition, you can enroll in a NAUI Scuba Diver course. Find a NAUI Training Center or Instructor near you by visiting the Dive Center Locator. Sign up for your class, grab your bathing suit and get ready to have FUN!"


and


http://www.tdisdi.com/sdi/get-certified/


"Children ages 8 and 9 can experience scuba in a pool environment with an instructor and when they turn 10 they will be able to complete the Open Water Scuba Diver program and earn their certification card"




i'm sure all agencies have done there research and because they don't want lawsuits, maybe since your an instructor you can find out the details and provide some valued information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsxr1997

We have consulted with Diving Scientists at the University of Florida, Florida State University, and other Universities with concerns of his developing skeletal structure with the possibilities of nitrogen bubble damage to tissue and skeletal system. All are in agreement with what we are doing at depths above 70 ffw, and a slightly elevated PO2 for short periods.


Marty Watson

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As a fellow NAUI instructor,I would be interested to know who these scientists are and if they are validated by studies(not!)
I personally will not train any student less than 12 years of age ....[/QUOTE]

We have had a complaint about this thread, so if it gets any more controversial, it will be locked, or deleted.

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Originally Posted by huxley

So what rule did he break? From what I see he is a cavern and intro instructor, at least that's how I read the posted website.
Now if an instructor teaches or guides he does the same thing, he takes ow diver into overhead. We've all done it when we took the cavern class, correct?

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His son is ten, he doesn't belong in an overhead environment and certainly not at 90'. Since his son cannot be certified for either the depth or the cavern at this age, it is a violation of the park standards (dive within the training limits).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by huxley

So what rule did he break? From what I see he is a cavern and intro instructor, at least that's how I read the posted website.
Now if an instructor teaches or guides he does the same thing, he takes ow diver into overhead. We've all done it when we took the cavern class, correct?

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And were you 10 years old when you took your cavern class?

If you look at post #34, you will see that I pointed out that if this is a non-instructional setting, there is little an agency can do, because they have no say in what is done outside of instruction. On the other hand, if this is an instructional setting, all kinds of rules come into play. I am not a NAUI instructor, so I am not sure what NAUI says about starting instruction at age 7 (according to post #50) or teaching cavern classes to 10 year olds. If it is just Daddy playing with his son, it is legally one thing. If it is an instructor providing instruction for a student who happens to be his son, it is another.

Three years ago I put my grandchild in a pool and went through the PADI Bubblemaker program with him. He was 8 years old. Last year I certified him as a Junior Open Water Diver. You can bet I followed standards very, very carefully. I would not dream of taking him into an overhead environment now.

My team saw the child in question during the dive. His diving style is not of someone trained for cavern. He dives in a very vertical position. He does not dive as someone with 3 years experience.
It was a very disturbing site to watch. We were very uncomfortable all afternoon...

Being a scientific type myself I would highly doubt that the Scientist you consulted actually supports and believes in what you are doing. More likely that they have no concrete evidence that what you are doing is harmful. That is a huge difference. Could just be that no one has collected enough data on that age group to have any opinion regarding consequences of exposure in young people.

Regardless of your personal experience and safety record it appears you broke the rules in a state park. That affects everyone, so please stop doing it.

I'm just curious what the US Cave Diving Team does? The last two entries on the website are about exploring the Ginnie Gallery and what appears to be a way to get around the Lips Restriction at Ginnie. Just wondering what's next for the US Cave Diving Team?

When my kids were just starting to dive at age 12. Michigan State Univ and DAN cautioned against diving deeper than 30 feet until their growth plates on long bones were closed. As there is no data on children with nitrogen bubble exposure as the risk is too great for those in a study. We had our kids Xray to confirm growth plate closure prior to deep prolonged diving.

Ken NAUI 18970









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DAN's position, correctly, and in line with the AAUS, is that no data means no diving. It is not that the risk is too great. No data. They don't know. They always say if they don't know, then don't do. But the real issue here is that some believe they have the right to impose their will, their views, their version of belief, on others. and that's wrong. I know better than you so you now must do as I say? My logic is better than yours? I wouldn't behave that way, so you can't either.

I once thought that there was this thing called "the cave community," the greatest bunch of people you'd ever want to meet. The last couple of years the CDF has shown me how wrong I was. It's not a community; it's a dysfunctional bunch of white guys with too much testosterone.

skip

skip, I could not agree more on both your comments.


lets stick to the facts so we can learn from this incident and stop the mud slinging.
I don't know how this could even be compared to the eagles next deaths.
the derogatory comments are sickening.

I did my NSS-CDS cavern class in 2006 with my 3 sons who were ages 16, 14 and 12 at the time. In fact, we did this during our 2006 Christmas vacation. My sons had been OW certified beginning on the day that my youngest turned 10 (and the other two boys were 13 and 11 respectively). Each of the boys completed the PADI Jr MSD in the 2.5 years interim between OW and Cavern. Cavern training was done in Ginnie which requires a minimum age of 12.

Frankly I found the training and diving to be a wonderful growing experience for my sons, myself and for us as a family. My younger two sons had actually snorkeled in our pool before they ever walked and all 3 boys were early competitive swimmers.

Count me in as another one against the "See Something Say Something" approach that this thread demonstrates with a mob mentality. I would tell a "fresh full cave 20 yr old" to worry about himself instead of trying to cause such strife in a family that dives together.

White guys with too much testosterone, history shows, are somewhat of a threat to ten year old children.....

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Originally Posted by Marty Watson

Folks, this is getting out of control. Some of these acquisitions are absurd to say the least, however somewhat comical. To set the record straight, Not that I owe any of you an explanation, My training consist of multiple organizations at all levels, full cave instructor available to teach at many levels, an avid Rebreather diver, and have had more training hours logged than most of you combined in actual water time. I have been diving my entire life, well, since 18 now 42, and have written training programs for several different organizations. I spend more time in the Caves of Florida and Mexico than most people will spend their entire life. My boy, who is 10, has been under my direction for MORE than 3 years now starting in basic O/W, Adv O/W in many different caverns with me, and yes, he's better than most. He's extremely bright, and has a love for cavern and ocean diving.
As far as some of the slanderous threads I've read, I do not cave dive with anyone other than students, I only dive with a few select "High end cavers, Scientists, and Marine Biologist". For the most....my immediate family, wife (Caver and Instructor), Daughter who is 16, son which is 10.
We have consulted with Diving Scientists at the University of Florida, Florida State University, and other Universities with concerns of his developing skeletal structure with the possibilities of nitrogen bubble damage to tissue and skeletal system. All are in agreement with what we are doing at depths above 70 ffw, and a slightly elevated PO2 for short periods. We are also in the process of purchasing a Doppler system to measure his tissue of N2, simply because of his love for diving, as we want to maintain his developing body.
The moral of my replying to this thread is simple: If you don't know what your talking about, don't make false claim against myself and my family. My wife, son, and myself are very safe, and will continue to be safe in all aspects. There is no one that will take our love and passion away from practicing our passions in life.
Oh, one more thing, most of our Seniors who developed the concepts of safe cave diving all started caving in there early years of childhood under the direction of very intelligent people. Our legacy's made all of this possible! Without keeping this passion and the love for the sport going, it could soon start to die off. Who's more suited to continue the legacy than our youth!
I have said my peace, and I will not speak again of this thread. Thanks to all of you who have supported me, and special thanks to the Scientist who believe in what we are doing, and the continued efforts of further research and training in this great sport!


Marty Watson

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Saving this in case it is edited in the future due to the email sent to an admin of this site.

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Originally Posted by FW

We have had a complaint about this thread, so if it gets any more controversial, it will be locked, or deleted.

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The only thing controversial here is a NAUI Cave Instructor violating agency standards and Florida State Park rules.

Well, the general consensus on the forum appears to be "Look out for your team," as opposed to "Look out for each other,". Maybe it has always been this way and I am new and out of line, I don't know...

BUT it appears that "See something, say something" is not a type of post that belongs on the forum and has not been productive to any party.
Since we have had a chance to see how this works...opinions? Though it crossed the line and went too far too many times, is this a tool we should use? Under which circumstances?

"See something, say something" is a poorly worded post that comes from a Northeast diver that has little regard for the respect of others and his recent iterations in the NSS-CDS publication UWS continue to prove that. People should mind their own business. Not that I agree in any way with Mr. Watkins statements. I believe he is a poorly trained cave diver and irresponsible instructor from the facts at hand. I do sincerely hope that his son has not inherited dads ego gene and will continue to dive safely despite the challenges his father puts him in. Obviously, the wife has no clue either as she is a willing participant in the narcissism.....

As in so much of our society today, people are concerned about "their rights", exercising "their rights", protecting "their rights" etc. Not so much concern about "their responsibilities" to society. In this case, the cave diving community. Sad!

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Originally Posted by jcr

The only thing controversial here is a NAUI Cave Instructor violating agency standards and Florida State Park rules.

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I agree.

Just remember, whenever State Park rules are violated, and whenever munchkins or old, Ben Gay smelling divers are threatened,we'll be there. Who are we? We are the United See Something Say Something Underwater Cave Coalition International Team.

So to anyone who believes they can violate State Park rules, know that USSSSUCCIT... is watching!

Good one snakedoc!!

I just searched NAUI's verify a member feature, and 51486 is a valid number, but has not been renewed for 2014 yet. For someone who has first hand knowledge, and wants to file a complaint with NAUI, Marty's given name is Gregory.
NAUI's phone number: 813-628-6284. Ask for Randy Shaw or Jed Livingstone.

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Originally Posted by skip

DAN's position, correctly, and in line with the AAUS, is that no data means no diving. It is not that the risk is too great. No data. They don't know. They always say if they don't know, then don't do.

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My point is that I don't believe there is a scientist who put their support behind this with no data. I think Dad is making this up. If not, perhaps he would like to cite the publications where this data is available.

But the real issue here is that some believe they have the right to impose their will, their views, their version of belief, on others. and that's wrong. I know better than you so you now must do as I say? My logic is better than yours? I wouldn't behave that way, so you can't either.

Um, isn't this kind of what democracy and order are intended to do? Complete anarchy doesn't really seem to work in most places. And since this occurred in the US state park system, where rules which limit your behaviour do exist, I am not really sure what your point is.


I think most of the concern is about breaking the rules in the state park and how it may affect the cave diving community.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Saving this in case it is edited in the future due to the email sent to an admin of this site.

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His composition needs to be edited (and soon). Perhaps while consulting with the "diving scientists" at the various Universities, he could find time to consult an English professor as well.

I too have a few points to add and might as well throw them out there.

1. I believe that "see something, say something" is not an epiphany of original thought. It is a concept that was begun in my open water training. Watch who you are diving with, look for these things before diving with someone, explain problems. It continued through my cave training. Watch who you dive with, mention the dangers and explain the necessary to untrained divers..... It is a thought that just had not until now been verbalized in a catchy phrase format.

2. This thread would have been here whether 'see something, say something" had been thought up or not. It would have been here sans the nanananana how is see something say something working out for you.....nananana

3. Divers already do practice see something say something, even if they don't realize it. Lets use the recent Cow Springs video thread as an example. Saw something, said something.... how did see something say something work out for us there?

4. Other examples are: the jerk who left his used condom on the picnic table, the one who blinded me with their lights on the way out of xxxx, the peeps who stirred up all the silt in xyz.
All the people who stopped and talk to people who ask questions, or the ones who turn back free divers or escort lost single tankers out of caves.


5. Just because the thought is verbalized is no reason to not use it responsibly.

6. Verbalizing something we already do in a catchy phrase is simply a good reminder and can be used as a proactive example of something we already do.

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Originally Posted by fishinmaniac

I can't imagine seeing a 10 year old on scuba period nevertheless walking to the water wearing doubles. Selfish dad.

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I've seen plenty, in fact I've known 10 year olds who were better divers than their parental counterparts. Not going to comment on the situation posted here....but in open water I see no issues with a 10 year old learning to dive under safe conditions.

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Originally Posted by cavewoman

I've seen plenty, in fact I've known 10 year olds who were better divers than their parental counterparts. Not going to comment on the situation posted here....but in open water I see no issues with a 10 year old learning to dive under safe conditions.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by plapin

gsxr1997, I don't see how your comments are related to the conversation but.






see
http://www.naui.org/recreational_divers.aspx


"As long as you are 10 years or older and in good physical condition, you can enroll in a NAUI Scuba Diver course. Find a NAUI Training Center or Instructor near you by visiting the Dive Center Locator. Sign up for your class, grab your bathing suit and get ready to have FUN!"


and


http://www.tdisdi.com/sdi/get-certified/


"Children ages 8 and 9 can experience scuba in a pool environment with an instructor and when they turn 10 they will be able to complete the Open Water Scuba Diver program and earn their certification card"




i'm sure all agencies have done there research and because they don't want lawsuits, maybe since your an instructor you can find out the details and provide some valued information.






As a fellow NAUI instructor,I would be interested to know who these scientists are and if they are validated by studies(not!)
I personally will not train any student less than 12 years of age ....

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[/QUOTE]

plapin- How it relates is simple- the instructor in question is diverting attention from himself by stating he has the blessings of scientists- I call BS on that!
As far as my comment - I do not have to accept any student I feel is not capable of diving safely. NAUI may have set minimum standards 10 but ,unlike other agencies,I make the final determination and may exceed any and all standards provided they are agreed upon by the student and implemented without prejudice. I will not take students less than 12 for a multitude of reasons,foremost the lack of understanding of the reality of death or serious injury that may result from not following the rules(this is not a video game where you hit reset)
NAUI held out for many years after all the other agencies followed PADIs lead on reducing minimum age standards. The reduction was an economic decision on all fronts. When a family of 4 wants to get certified before the big cruise vacation and little Johnny is eleven,a NAUI shop could not certify him ,yet the shop down the street with another agencies banner could certify them all,where do you think they would go?
I personally have no beef with him as a dad taking his kid diving.That being said, exceeding the limits of a junior diver cert.(If it indeed happened) reflects badly on him particularly as an active instructor. Violating park rules is the other issue.

Just for the record,my NAUI instructor # is 44981