How often do you run a line?

[Ken Hill]

Cave agencies that manage the instruction process and standards could learn a lot from what the faa has done in flight training. The FAA stuff was developed to reduce fatalities associated with pilot error those strategies and methods could be applied to reducing diver error as well.

I agree, and one of the very first posts I wrote addressed one bonehead gas management plan that advocated turn around similar to doing a "bingo fuel" calculation relying on a tail wind. I had a long discussion with the FAA rep at Sun & Fun and they are working hard to reduce incidents from the time the airplane leaves the chocks until it gets back. The FAA approach has a lot has to do with personal responsibility and the ability to administrativly sanction rule breakers.

One thing I'd like to see in cave diving is a dive plan simply left on a dashboard. There are many false alarms reported because there is no way of telling if a team is overdue. And if they are a timely search will know where to look. Cave diving remains a free and unsupervised activity unlike flying that has a controller to remind you if you go astray. I'd give any money to see the invention of an underwater transponder and EPIRB. /Ken

[Jay]

Nice twist on words Andrew.

I said I believed absolutely the rule should not be changed. The complacency should be addressed.

There is a difference. And to me it is about the complacency.( And I am just as guilty as most)

I personally believe when we discuss complacency as an accident contributor we don't give enough thought to our own complacency.

Where do we draw the line?

The majority of folks surveyed (68.25% when I posted this) do not alway's run a continuous guideline to the surface. (counting all situations in which we were trained to run a line)

Does that mean we can change the rule? No, I don't believe that.
Does that mean complacency is OK? No, I don't believe that either.

Do we just say "alway's run a continuous guideline" *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*

Do we address the complacency somehow?

Do we start teaching "here's your card, your a big boy/girl now, these are the rules that are OK to break, but only in cave x,y,z under x,y,z conditions"

Maybe we should just stop talking about it before the agencies revoke our cards.

Jay,

I'd really like to explore this. Sorry for picking on you. But how do you

a) Break a rule that
b) You absolutely believe in?

How do you handle this contradiction?

It seems to me that either one believes in a rule (and therefore never breaks it) or one doesn't (and therefore is willing to break it).

I would suggest that there are times when you just don't see the point. Ginnie on a Sunday with 6 lines going in (half of which are flapping in the breeze). The Hill 400 on your 20th swim down it.

In which case, the rule isn't absolute.

_____________________________________

Now onto my problem. the REAL complacency is when you begin to think that you can get away with this everywhere. You find yourself not running a reel on white-to-white. In new caves. At a multi-directional fork. Stuff like that. And suddenly youv'e crossed a line and are testing fate.

And one day find yourself lost.

So... is the secret to say ALWAYS run a reel, and then find yourself backsliding, or is it so say "OK, the following places don't seem too hurtful. But DO NOT GET COMPLACENT and make sure that you run a reel in situations a, b, c, etc"

I've formed such a set of rules for myself after a bad incident. White to white (and in particular, drop an arrow!). Low flow (again mainly for the arrow). High silt out probability. New (to me) cave. All these get a line.

I'm unapologetic about not running one on pretty much any jump off the gold line in Ginnie. Even after Bruce's death.

But THAT'S ME! And that's the problem. This is a PERSONAL rule, where a universal set of guidelines would be useful.

50% of us are cheating. And each of us has a different set of rules. That's scary.

[phillip1]

I think that if "there are too many jumps were there should be T's" is a very poor excuse to not run a line.
I think the problem here seems to be a bunch of complacent/lazy/stupid/ divers completely disregarding the most basic of basic cave diving safety procedures and actually trying to rationalize this.
The problem is not relining a cave with T's instead of jumps so that lazy/complacent divers don't need to run a jump, the problem IS the divers actions and how to change that, not change the line to accommodate unsafe behavior.
The poll indicates to an extent what problem is out in the "open" so to speak, but I can only imagine what additional safety violations some divers are doing on a routine basis.
I have never dove in FL but I have dove a bunch in Mex and the caves there have numerous jumps, reach gaps, T's some very complex too, doing 4-5 jumps or more is a fairly routine thing, and it is a non issue, always run a line, period. I can't imagine the lines in FL being more complex than Mex, (I could be wrong) and it is not an issue, I just do not understand the mindset of people who don't run a line no matter how well you think you know a cave.

[icestac]

I can't imagine the lines in FL being more complex than Mex

I think the vast majority are not skipped because they are more complex, but actually the extreme opposite -- appear simple and trivial "How could I NOT find my way back from here?"

The way I read the suggestion was to either make it a T so it is a non-issue or make it more of a jump so that the "simple" threshold is passed and the diver says "I need to put a line here".

It would be great if the rule was adhered to 100% of the time, but in the absence of that, can we do something to improve the acceptance rate?

Cheers,
Jeff

[Jay]

I think that if "there are too many jumps were there should be T's" is a very poor excuse to not run a line.
I think the problem here seems to be a bunch of complacent/lazy/stupid/ divers completely disregarding the most basic of basic cave diving safety procedures and actually trying to rationalize this.

Pretty much.

[aainslie]

Ken,

"Bonehead" eh?

I'm sure that's not aimed at me. It's aimed at my theory, therefore not derogatory. Right?

Sheesh. Gotta love the onesidedness of rule application around here.

Jay,

So given this thread, is is your intent to always run lines in future? That's commendable... but I predict that one day, going into a Ginnie-like entrance with scooters and stages, you'll backslide...

There's a middle ground. I think it makes sense to explore that middle ground - the alternative is to leave everyone finding it for themselves, as they currently do. Once a rule is broken by 50%, it's just not an effective rule.

Your comment on "Do we just say "alway's run a continuous guideline" *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* " is a great example. Many instructors cease to run lines with their students once they hit advanced classes like sidemount, stage, scooter etc.. So taht's exactly what our community is doing.

[Marc Bryan]

I just do not understand the mindset of people who don't run a line no matter how well you think you know a cave.

Maybe I can help you understand one scenario where I do not run a line, and my reasoning for having a lazy/stupid/complacent mindset.

Following the gold line to a jump that is a U shaped tunnel that is 200ft long and reconnects with the main tunnel five feet from the gold line.

Install a jump line from the gold line to the white line in the tunnel. Swim the tunnel. Return to gold line without running a jump/gap reel.

Pull first jump reel on exit.

My reasoning:

There are numerous times when diving the gold line in caves when divers are more than 5 feet from it. Nobody is screaming that we do not have a reel tied off.

In one of the most popular caves in FL, Ginnie Springs Devils system, the majority of swimming divers enter the system and choose a path that is high and to the left. The gold line is on the right, sometimes more than 20 ft away. Nobody wants to write a rule to protect these lazy/stupid/complacent divers.

Have you ever been more than a couple of feet off the line you were following? If so, did you deploy a reel first?

Maybe I am being extremely dangerous. I am very opened minded to arguments against my reasoning in this situation. Maybe my mind could be changed.

Absolutes, rarely are.

[Jay]

Jay,

So given this thread, is is your intent to always run lines in future? That's commendable... but I predict that one day, going into a Ginnie-like entrance with scooters and stages, you'll backslide...

Andrew,
Please stop "predicting" what I am going to do or say or twisting my intentions or anyone elses. It adds no value other then demeaning yourself.

[wingman]

Cave diving remains a free and unsupervised activity unlike flying that has a controller to remind you if you go astray. I'd give any money to see the invention of an underwater transponder and EPIRB. /Ken

Flying vfr outside of certain airspace classifications does not require a controller. You are free to fly into a thunderstorm if you wish and there are people who do not listen or simply ignore...a student pilot here in pensacola chose to fly his cessna skymaster (center line thrust twin) that he was learning to fly in out of the area prior to one of the hurricanes two years or so ago. He put his wife and 2 kids on board (a student is prohibited from carrying passengers) took off, crashed and all 4 were killed. Point is flying is not as supervised as you might think. General aviation flyng can be considered dangerous...at least you get fairly good data:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/08nall.pdf

[aainslie]

Andrew,
Please stop "predicting" what I am going to do or say or twisting my intentions or anyone elses. It adds no value other then demeaning yourself.

I'm just trying to work out what you're saying here.

It ties in with your other thread. I suppose it's a philosophical issue of whether not running a line at somewhere like the Ear is "complacent", or "sensible". I'm not sure how one differentiates. But if there's no good reason otehr than pattern formation for running one at Ginnie, the chances of falling back to one's prior behavior one day are pretty high.