How often do you run a line?

[icestac]

3. Always use a continuous guideline to OW, now I really fail to see what is so strict and silly and why people would break this rule, I say ALWAYS run a line, period.

To stick with this thread's original topic and to throw something out. Let's say we all agree with the "have a continuous guideline to OW". Sounds good, but people do not seem to be doing it. So could this mean that we have too many "simple" jumps/gaps? Are the lines close enough to OW that people feel "safe" not running a line?

Going back to something Forrest pointed out earlier in this, what if it was a T instead? What if the line was extended to OW -- OR -- what if the line was brought back further into the cave? Maybe we can try to mitigate some of this behaviour by modifying the "rules" that the line committees use when deciding where/how to lay the lines? I would suggest that most of the people who skip running a line do it because the feel comfortable doing so -- reasons probably include "it is only a couple of feet", "it is basically OW anyways", etc.

Just a thought of another way to look at the problem/solution.

Cheers,
Jeff

[LiteHedded]

So let's go over these silly strict rules.
1. be trained in cave diving and stay within the limits of your training, any comments?

2. Use only one third of your gas for penetration and keep a third in reserve for emergencies, now this I really do not agree with, I think it is not conservative enough. I you are diving to thirds and your buddy looses all his/her air at maximum penetration, you do not have enough to get out.
So on rule #2 I say thirds +30 bar

3. Always use a continuous guideline to OW, now I really fail to see what is so strict and silly and why people would break this rule, I say ALWAYS run a line, period.

4. Bring at least 3 sources of light one primary and two backups, now given today's super small sized lights why not bring at least 3?, I always bring 4, one primary, one backup primary and two backups and they are all very very small and take up no room at all. And anyway rule #4 is further reinforced if you don't violate rule#3 in the first place, if you run a line to OW you should be able to get out in more or less the same time from anywhere you are with no light or viz.

5. No deep dives in caves on air, now this is something I do not do, but I can understand that super experienced deep air divers feel they can safely do this, but you are talking about a few people and NOT the general cave diving community.

Now I am talking about swimming dives not scootering which I know nothing about, but as to regular cave diving what does anyone think is wrong with theses guidelines? I think that if cave diving were to start today you would have the same amount and types of accidents as you did in the early days.
The only real difference is light size and tank valves, the hazards are exactly the same.

does that EVER happen? are we planning for unrealistic failures here?

[PfcAJ]

I think the cave diving community needs to remember why we have lines in the first place. They aren't for training, they are for safety. Safety for cave divers.

If an OW diver 'might' follow a goldline into a cave, they could just as easily follow my temporary line into the cave. Saying that having the goldline to OW will entice OW divers into the cave isn't a very good argument.

If instructors want to train students to run a primary line (which I feel is a very important skill), have them run it as far in as the instructor sees fit. You don't have to tie off as soon as you come across the mainline...

I also feel that there should be less jumps and more T's. The T at LR is a pretty good example. To my knowledge, there has not been a fatal accident because of it. That being said, T's might be appropriate in more locations than we currently have them. There are certainly places where they should be and aren't.

If we take a step back and rethink why we are doing what we do, we could make the system safer for everyone that uses it.

[BobK]

2. Use only one third of your gas for penetration and keep a third in reserve for emergencies, now this I really do not agree with, I think it is not conservative enough. I you are diving to thirds and your buddy looses all his/her air at maximum penetration, you do not have enough to get out.
So on rule #2 I say thirds +30 bar

does that EVER happen? are we planning for unrealistic failures here?

It happened to Sheck Eckley and a buddy of his.

Personally I'd prefer to have enough gas in a situation like that so that I don't get even more stressed because I don't know if I have enough gas.

[jj1987]

It happened to Sheck Eckley and a buddy of his.

Personally I'd prefer to have enough gas in a situation like that so that I don't get even more stressed because I don't know if I have enough gas.

How did it happen? Were they diving doubles without an isolator?

Knowing it happened without knowing the root cause doesn't help much. Would more gas have helped, or could they have had 10x the cu ft of gas and still lose all of it?

I see a lot of people asking for help turning on a valve...if you can't reach your valves, the solution is to fix that, not add more gas. If you can reach your valves, the solution might be more gas, but solving the problem always beats a work around, IMO.

[BabyDuck]

sg, i promise i'm not saying change *anything*, just restating what i think is andrew's central point. continue to dive and break eggs as you desire!

and phillip, please show where anyone said the current rules are silly or too strict. *nobody* is saying to ditch them, just rethink them & make sure they make sense for today.

[tmcdonal]

No flippant reply,but where is the dividing line of new cave diver and someone familiar. The only reason I mention this because cave diving is peer pressure oriented. I know intro divers who fight for the right to dive doubles at a site because they don't want to stand out as someone different while heading to the water with a single tank. I have seen newer cave divers just nod when the dive plan calls for a visual because they don't want to be the person in the team to say they aren't comfortable with a dive plan,and show their newness to their buddies. Claim of familiarity of a cave system,is something that concerns me because complacancy seems to occur. I know two very veteran cave divers who have died in the last 5-6 years because they knew the system extremely well,and evidence suggests they had some very creative rules for gas planning. Where do we leave new cave diver and enter familiarity-is it 200 cave dives?....

I guess that's another caveat for me - peer pressure doesn't play into it. I was cave trained with a longtime friend and we're the only buddies for each other. Prior to that, we spent many years diving deep in doubles and cave diving was not a rush to jump to the next "stage". With a new buddy this would be a different situation.

I'm not talking about creative gas management and I don't have a hard and fast rule for X number of dives means you have enough experience for Y situation. Kind of like Abe Davis setting minimum standards for some dives. Some divers are ready before then, some after 100 still need more work.

I'm also not talking about changing the training rules. However, with the recent fatality, to say he didn't run a line and that's why he died is like saying somebody crashed their car because he didn't have is hands at 10 and 2 as we were taught.

At the end of our training I very clearly remember my instructor saying "I warn you not to do visual jumps." I would say the same to a new cave diver.

-Tom

[scububa]

What exactly is a "scientific poll"?

Copernicus???

Sorry, I am confusing "What's My Line?"
with "Where's Your Line?"

[phillip1]

does that EVER happen? are we planning for unrealistic failures here?

Most OOA situations are unlikely some even more unlikely, yet everyone plans and trains for them. I think that since it is possible to loose all your air at any point, why not plan for the worst case scenario and reserve more than thirds in case it does happen
I would rather have as many angles covered as possible especially since the solution is so simple, reserve a bit more than thirds, the cost? maybe 10 mins less of dive time.

[LiteHedded]

Most OOA situations are unlikely some even more unlikely, yet everyone plans and trains for them. I think that since it is possible to loose all your air at any point, why not plan for the worst case scenario and reserve more than thirds in case it does happen
I would rather have as many angles covered as possible especially since the solution is so simple, reserve a bit more than thirds, the cost? maybe 10 mins less of dive time.

certainly.
I'm just wondering if it ever happens. with modern equipment and isolator manifolds.
will you ever lose both posts? let alone at max penetration.


we can plan ourselves right out of a dive if we plan for every conceivable failure. where is the line drawn?
i'm just thinking out loud here...