How often do you run a line?

[phillip1]

Just to make my position 100% clear, I think the cave diving community in the US should somehow make it very clear to all divers no matter what your level, that you should always run a line to OW and especially at jumps, if over 30% of divers (according to the poll so far) are not doing that, then they have the wrong mindset to be cave diving. I think this is not a rule that can be changed or modified in any way, I don't see how you could modify this rule to make it safer, just run a line, ALWAYS period.
Although so far I don't agree, I could see some of the other rules being modified and possibly made safer, but not running a line is just plain stupidity/laziness.
Similar to not doing a bubble check 70% of the time.

[Oister]

I’m not sure who said it but it was good. “When the recovery team shows up they will run a line when they are recovering your body“.

[Cleric]

How foten do you run a line?

Is this German profanity?

nah, if it were German, it would be ge-foten!

Sounds Dutch to me.

[aainslie]

Just to make my position 100% clear, I think the cave diving community in the US should somehow make it very clear to all divers no matter what your level, that you should always run a line to OW and especially at jumps, if over 30% of divers (according to the poll so far) are not doing that, then they have the wrong mindset to be cave diving. I think this is not a rule that can be changed or modified in any way, I don't see how you could modify this rule to make it safer, just run a line, ALWAYS period.
Although so far I don't agree, I could see some of the other rules being modified and possibly made safer, but not running a line is just plain stupidity/laziness.
Similar to not doing a bubble check 70% of the time.

Instructors DO make it very clear. The cave diving community DOES make it very clear.

(Actually not even that is true. On scooter classes, many instructors don't bother with jumps onto the Hill 400 line. That's DURING THE CLASS!! Even more don't bother running a line into the Ear. Someone was recounting this point to me last night on the phone. I know at least 3 instructors with this approach.)

Yet that same community is largely ignoring the rule.

Kelly and Forrest, I want to point out that I am NOT offering a solution. I pointed out that I nearly hurt myself by breaking this rule,and that I run lines MORE OFTEN now than I did prior to this incident.

If one makes overly strict rules, they tend to get broken because they just seem so silly. There are a lot of jumps in Ginnie that just don't seem necessary, particularly on/off the Gold Line. And circuits is a great example of why people often break this rule.

So... when a majority are breaking something that is viewed as a cardinal rule, it's at least worth discussing it. Why is it happening? Is the solution to just hammer it home harder (and will that ever stop people from doing circuits they do all the time without running a relll on a prior dive)? Is there an intermediate solution? Or should we do nothing, and be happy that over half the divers are just making stuff up as they go along - a dangerous situation?

Once more, NO prescription from me, guys. I actually think this is pretty dangerous, as I do much of the ad-hoccery that I see in deviations from the "rule of thirds", such as the usage of a "1/2 + 200" approach to stages (which puts all your eggs in one basket - a really bad way to do risk management).

It continues to amuse me that a lot of you think I am the irresponsible one here. The irresponsible thing to do is to be complacent about a dangerous situation.

[BabyDuck]

i've been thinking about this, and i think i get what andrew's saying. lemme put it another way. if i'm wrong, i'm sure he'll correct me!

*if* we were starting to cave dive *now*, with current equipment, would we come up with the exact same rules stated the same way? or - if we look at deaths in just the last 5 or 10 years, would we come up with the exact same rules?

if we were just starting to cave dive *now*, for instance, would we have a 3 lights rule? or a 2 primaries rule? or what? because the lights are so different & more reliable now than earlier, but smaller. maybe 2 primaries makes sense now & not so much when you had to carry motorcycle batteries. maybe 1 primary & 1 backup. maybe the rule wouldn't be different.

*but*, if we were starting fresh with recent incidents, would we have the same rules? more rules? stiffer? laxer? more 'if a then b but if c then d'? he's not calling for no rules. he's calling for making sure the ones we have make the best sense for now.

a very off topic analogy - if you've ever taken home ec or learned to cook from your grandmother, i bet you were told to crack eggs one at a time in a dish before putting them into whatever you were cooking to make sure they were good. that made sense when your eggs came from a local farm & might really be last week's just found today instead of today's egg. but when was the last time you had a bum egg from the supermarket? it's happened once in my presence in 40 years. to me, that's not a big enough risk to clean an extra dish every time i use an egg. maybe to you it is. but that's an old, hungover rule example. maybe the rules would be exactly the same. but what if we're chasing problems that don't really exist in that form anymore?

no answers from me, just a restatement of the question.

[Squirrel Girl]

A good solution to this would put a "T" at all the popular circuits (loops) like the "Merry-Go-Round" at Little River.

Well, get yer buildin' supplies out, cuz I can think of quite a few place like this---that I've been to with YOU!

[Squirrel Girl]

Do what ya like, Baby Duck, but I want at least 3 lights when I go in a cave, be it dry or flooded! OK, I'll concede that last year when I was doing my research and only going in a couple hundred feet, I did only take 2 lights, but I still think 3 is a *good* idea.

And as far as eggs go, I like cracking eggs into a separate bowl mainly because on rare occasions a bit of shell breaks off and I'd like to see it before it goes straight into the goodies I bring to work. I have a reputation to maintain! Oh, and when I cook for myself, I sometimes push the expiration date for the eggs, and I want to see if the yolk breaks before I use it.

There are many reasons for doing something that's a good idea. Usually it's not needed, but on those rare case, you sure want the backup!

[phillip1]

Instructors DO make it very clear. The cave diving community DOES make it very clear.



If one makes overly strict rules, they tend to get broken because they just seem so silly. There are a lot of jumps in Ginnie that just don't seem necessary, particularly on/off the Gold Line. And circuits is a great example of why people often break this rule.

So... when a majority are breaking something that is viewed as a cardinal rule, it's at least worth discussing it. situation?

.

I think that running a line is one of the most inviolable safety guidelines and should be as strict as possible as in my opinion there is just no safe alternative, and no room for not running a line, period.

[quarrydiver]

I'm 100% with Philip in this regard.

Marius

[phillip1]

So let's go over these silly strict rules.
1. be trained in cave diving and stay within the limits of your training, any comments?

2. Use only one third of your gas for penetration and keep a third in reserve for emergencies, now this I really do not agree with, I think it is not conservative enough. I you are diving to thirds and your buddy looses all his/her air at maximum penetration, you do not have enough to get out.
So on rule #2 I say thirds +30 bar

3. Always use a continuous guideline to OW, now I really fail to see what is so strict and silly and why people would break this rule, I say ALWAYS run a line, period.

4. Bring at least 3 sources of light one primary and two backups, now given today's super small sized lights why not bring at least 3?, I always bring 4, one primary, one backup primary and two backups and they are all very very small and take up no room at all. And anyway rule #4 is further reinforced if you don't violate rule#3 in the first place, if you run a line to OW you should be able to get out in more or less the same time from anywhere you are with no light or viz.

5. No deep dives in caves on air, now this is something I do not do, but I can understand that super experienced deep air divers feel they can safely do this, but you are talking about a few people and NOT the general cave diving community.

Now I am talking about swimming dives not scootering which I know nothing about, but as to regular cave diving what does anyone think is wrong with theses guidelines? I think that if cave diving were to start today you would have the same amount and types of accidents as you did in the early days.
The only real difference is light size and tank valves, the hazards are exactly the same.