How often do you run a line?

[aainslie]

Well, let's see what sort of answers this provides. I still get a weird mix of PM's and emails, some in favour of my stirring the pot, some against.

It's my contention that most people don't always run lines, but are afraid to say so in public. I'd like to see how true that is. Your input is anonymous, so please be honest - no one will yell at you, only at me.

My reason for asking is that I believe that this needs to be addresed more formally. If a majority of people don't run lines, yet there is no agreed basis on which to decide when to run them and when not, we're all reinventing the wheel on our own. And avoidable accidents could be... well, avoided if we had a better set of rules when deciding whether to run one or not.

[phillip1]

Good poll, I wonder what the rational is behind not running a line & doing visual jumps?
No matter how well you may know a cave or how many dives you have should you not always run a line? seems to me that some people don't and are needlessly increasing the risks out of laziness or complacency.

[Ken Hill]

All,
Please understand that your answers are not anonymous! They are read by property owners, state officials and others trained and untrained logged on to an open forum. The pole is not scientific since the people answering can be ANYONE!

Ask yourself, what will this poll do for you? Is it any good if it influences you to make a bad choice and you die! What if it gives argument to close down a site or restrict it to guided dives that will ensure lines are run.

I truly don't understand the mentality of the initiator or the motivation. It certainly isn't in the best interest of cave diving. These are classic topics for workshops and discussion groups or private emails. Even a blank sheet left at fill stations would be more accurate and less harmful to the sport than this nonsense.

/Ken

[aainslie]

All,
Please understand that your answers are not anonymous! They are read by property owners, state officials and others trained and untrained logged on to an open forum. The pole is not scientific since the people answering can be ANYONE!

Ask yourself, what will this poll do for you? Is it any good if it influences you to make a bad choice and you die! What if it gives argument to close down a site or restrict it to guided dives that will ensure lines are run.

I truly don't understand the mentality of the initiator or the motivation. It certainly isn't in the best interest of cave diving. These are classic topics for workshops and discussion groups or private emails. Even a blank sheet left at fill stations would be more accurate and less harmful to the sport than this nonsense.

/Ken

Ken, who are you to be the ultimate arbiter of what is good or bad for cave diving?

In opposition to Ken's oft repeated argument, I (once more) offer the argument that debating this in public leads to safer practices in the long run, by preventing new divers from reinventing the wheel on their own.

Not that either of these arguments are new to anyone following these threads...

On the point of accuracy of the survey... well, each member of this board has one vote. they can use it any way they want. It's far more controlled than your fill station nonsense. And Sludge, FW or any other moderator can let us know if a bunch of accounts are suddenly set up to somehow sway the votes.

[jj1987]

Ken, who are you to be the ultimate arbiter of what is good or bad for cave diving?

In opposition to Ken's oft repeated argument, I offer the argument that debating this in public leads to safer practices in the long run, by preventing new divers from reinventing the wheel on their own.

Not that either of these arguments are new to anyone following these threads...

On the point of accuracy of the survey... well, each member of this board has one vote. they can use it any way they want. It's far more controlled than your fill station nonsense. And Sludge, FW or any other moderator can let us know if a bunch of accounts are suddenly set up to somehow sway the votes.

But if I vote that I sometimes don't run a primary, and I always run jump/gaps, it sounds as if I'm flipping a coin on what I'm going to do today, when the real story is I'd never not run a reel in Orange Grove where goldline is cut back a ways, but I don't see the need in Peacock where goldline comes to 2-3ft within the OW zone. Nothing separates my vote from the guy who doesn't run a primary at sites where it's cut way back.

If this were in a private, certified cave divers only forum, I might be willing to elaborate a bit more. But as it is, if people start posting that they never run a line at peacock (which ends only a few ft out of ow), landowners who don't know this might be lurking and think we're all taking huge risks breaking the rules that we like to boast about so often.

Reminds me of having a bible study at a bar. It just doesn't look good, even if people suspect it might be going on anyways. I would support the idea of a limited access forum for these conversations. I think your idea of opening the floor is good, but I'm not sure I like it being a public forum.

[Ken Hill]

Ken, who are you to be the ultimate arbiter of what is good or bad for cave diving?

.

Since its not a scientific poll its Andrew's poll ... who is exactly what to cave diving? As said before join an organization, go to a workshop, hold discussions on a topic of any interest to the community.

/Ken

[YBWET]

All,
Please understand that your answers are not anonymous! They are read by property owners, state officials and others trained and untrained logged on to an open forum. The pole is not scientific since the people answering can be ANYONE!

Ask yourself, what will this poll do for you? Is it any good if it influences you to make a bad choice and you die! What if it gives argument to close down a site or restrict it to guided dives that will ensure lines are run.

I truly don't understand the mentality of the initiator or the motivation. It certainly isn't in the best interest of cave diving. These are classic topics for workshops and discussion groups or private emails. Even a blank sheet left at fill stations would be more accurate and less harmful to the sport than this nonsense.

/Ken

I for one agree with Ken 100% and also don't understand the mentality of the initiator or the motivation.

[Kelly Jessop]

How foten do you run a line?

Is this German profanity?

[aainslie]

Since its not a scientific poll its Andrew's poll ... who is exactly what to cave diving? As said before join an organization, go to a workshop, hold discussions on a topic of any interest to the community.

/Ken

What exactly is a "scientific poll"?

How foten do you run a line?

Is this German profanity?

I know - I only spotted it after posting and couldn't correct. Sorry!

[RN]

But if I vote that I sometimes don't run a primary, and I always run jump/gaps, it sounds as if I'm flipping a coin on what I'm going to do today, when the real story is I'd never not run a reel in Orange Grove where goldline is cut back a ways, but I don't see the need in Peacock where goldline comes to 2-3ft within the OW zone. Nothing separates my vote from the guy who doesn't run a primary at sites where it's cut way back.

This is within some agency standards. In fact, making a primary tie off in a safe exit zone is within standards. So Peacock I doesn't count as not running a line.