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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FW View Post
    Why there are multi levels in cave training:

    The problem arose that when switching to doubles, a lot of students needed more time to finish "full" cave, so Apprentice was added. A lot of guys didn't go on to finish, so were considered "loose cannons", so the time limit was introduced.

    It isn't so much that anyone "looks down" on Cavern through Apprentice, but even the casual observer has to admit that someone only partially trained isn't fully trained, and could be a hazard to themselves, or others.
    I think I understand the two perspectives better after reading this.

    The first perspective stems from the knowledge of how cave training used to be conducted. Those with the idea in mind that to be a true "cave" diver at any level you need to demonstrate the intellectual, emotional and physical skills to be good enough to complete full cave training and unless you've completed this level you are still a student.

    The second perspective is that since the levels Cavern, Intro To Cave, Apprentice Cave Diver and Cave Diver exist, a diver can be certified to any or all of these levels depending upon the goal of the diver and each level is a bonafide certification on its own and not necessarily a "student" diver.

    For example, you can have a person who really doesn't like the idea of being off the gold line. Perhaps that diver has a fear of becoming lost on the line when white lines T or require jumps and gaps? This diver may not trust his or her sense of direction and ability to read the line markers in a siltout or may not feel comfortable trying to find their way back if a line were accidentally cut or a spool stolen. Because full cave demands circuits, this diver doesn't want to enter a full cave class because that would be off the main line and outside his or her comfort zone. A diver could spend years diving every day, running reels from open water to the gold line, learning a lot about the cave's geology and hydrology, displaying perfect trim, buoyancy and propulsion. In time, this diver would accumulate so much knowledge about diving and overhead diving that his or her consul could become invaluable. This diver might possess such awesome skills that he or she could backward kick better than anyone else in the community and be teaching cave instructor trainers how to refine this technique. Knowledge and experience about circuits, traverses, and other full cave diving activities would be lacking, but it's possible that such a diver could be better than anyone else in the world at diving the first 1000 feet of a cave system, knowing where to be in flow and maybe refining a swim to the Lips to the degree of an Olympic swimmer understanding every nuance of lane, temperature and ripple in a pool. This diver could potentially gain more overall knowledge of flora, fauna, geotherms, swimming skills, practice of valve drills and S-drills than every cave instructor trainer combined. For such a diver being considered a "student" or having "not yet completed training" would seem ridiculous. The only thing such a diver might lack is the comfort and confidence (due to the boogeyman of their imagination of what full cave diving is like) to do circuits and therefore won't gain a full cave card.

    Then, imagine how this diver feels when he or she sees a cave instructor who can't frog kick, or a cave instructor trainer with consistent 20° down trim angle when that diver is always at 0° horizontal? Or, sees full cave divers who swim with their hands? Or, sees everyone else being sloppy with their reels entering The Ear? Or, divers not running a guideline or violating the 5 Rules of Accident Analysis?

    Someone could take GUE-F all the way through GUE Tech 3 in open water, find out cave diving isn't for him beyond GUE Cave 1 and spend his whole career at the Cave 1 level. To better his experience and persepectives, he could decide to take NAUI Cave 1, NSS-CDS Intro, NACD Intro, TDI Intro, IANTD Intro, PDIC Cave 1, PSAI Intro, and be 100 times the cave diver as some full cave instructors in that first few hundred feet, know more about the cave to whatever distance 1/6's takes him, be the best buddy and an all-around great guy. Some divers see the merit and value of this.

    Others would say, he's still just Intro. He's not a "real" cave diver. He's only partially trained. Comparing cave levels to mixed gas levels, are you only partially trained when diving nitrox, advanced nitrox, trimix 1, trimix 2? Do you have to be advanced trimix before you can speak with authority and experience about deep diving? If you live somewhere that 150 feet is your max possible depth are you not fully trained to dive there without trimix 2? Likewise, if your cave world (in your mind) ends at 1/6's on the mainline and you don't wish to see anything else are you just a partially trained cave diver or a great cave diver at that level?

    Everyone will have his own opinions, but I think Perrone is thinking about being the type of intro to cave diver I've described if he never goes beyond that level and would value the diver I've described quite highly over many full cave divers carrying cards today.

    The cave community would fear where a "partially trained" diver could go so the full cave card gives everyone peace of mind that that diver met the standards. Meanwhile some partially trained divers fear that the standards for many full cave divers aren't quite good enough.

    Trace Malinowski
    "Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FW View Post
    ......
    When the book comes out, next week or next month, and you read the sentence where I mention Forrest - this is what I'm talking about!

    Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.

  3. #73

    Default Advice?

    Slightly off-topic, but considering the caliber of the most recent posts here, I really want to get opinions from y'all on something.

    I am one of those who has the full cave training BUT not a lot of experience – I made several (3?) trips to N Fla to dive between Basic & Apprentice/Full, but I went from Basic to Full in a little over a year (about 8 years between Cavern and Basic, but that’s a different story). I’m comfortable “taking care of myself,” and I think I know my limits. I've been planning to stick to - for as long as I need to - diving with MORE experienced cavern/cave divers who are okay with diving conservatively when they dive with me because I want to learn from them and because that’s how I’d like to build up my experience.

    I have friends/acquaintances who recently did the 8-day cavern to full course in Mexico with an instructor who was highly recommended. I’m sure they are well trained. They were both very experienced OW divers and have some technical certifications, but I don't know about their actual technical diving experience, and I haven't dove with either of them much. One of them and I have been talking about a trip to Florida together, b/c we think it would be fun. I don't have concerns about him wanting to dive beyond his (or my) training/experience level when/if we dive together. However, I'm guessing that going in the Ear is going to be a "trying" experience for him. It certainly was that for me the first time I tried to lead it - straight down the middle, close to the ground – I was very glad I was doing it WITH an instructor. He probably has more experience & training than I did at that time, but I think his experience of cave diving thus far has been in relatively still, shallow water. So, my question: how well does training in Mexico cenotes transfer to higher-flow Florida caves? and, Is there something I should be considering that I'm not?


  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanna.Cordry View Post
    So, my question: how well does training in Mexico cenotes transfer to higher-flow Florida caves? and, Is there something I should be considering that I'm not?
    Cave training is cave training. There are certainly differences to all sites. Flow, access, hikes into the woods..., Just take a few first dives slow to get familiar with the site and be honest in gauging comfort...


  5. #75
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    I did Basic in NFL and Apprentice/Full in Mexico. I am thankful for having done the first part of my training in Florida since that is my primary stomping grounds. I was also glad to do my App/Full in Mexico because I felt there is more complex navigational opporunities there with tons and tons of BT.

    That said, I think I would be humbled very quickly if I did all my training in Mexico and then decided to lead a dive in Ginnie or any other high-flow cave for that matter. I don't know if your buddy will be able to dive too far beyond his training (or the junction room) for the first few dives in Devil's anyway

    _____________________________________________
    Ryan Battles

  6. #76

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    Thanks... that's kind of what I was thinking.

    My first trip into Devils was the first time I'd been past the cavern zone of any cave, and I was just about overwhelmed by how beautiful it was. However, I was "just" following Ralph di Panfilo, and so it really didn't seem difficult at all... Second time in, though, when I led and "forgot" about high and left... I didn't even make it to the lips before my thumb came out. My head was pounding, and I was about to puke. Not one of my finer/happier moments...


  7. #77
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    Joanna,
    From your post, I couldn't tell if you've done *any* diving with them. Before I'd go on a cave trip with them I'd take them out to Lake Travis and practice some basic skills. You should be able to get a bit of a feel of their trim and buoyancy by practicing tying ins, running a line, OOA practice, etc.

    When my cave buddy and I make a trip to High Springs, we always hit Jackson Blue and Madison along the way. I'll probably get flamed for this, but depending on the flow I would consider Jackson a good warm-up to Ginnie for pull and glide.

    Upon diving Ginnie with new divers, I'd probably enter first through the eye, then the ear after sufficient warnings/explanations of best technique. However, as netmage said, every cave is different and it just take experience/practice. That's the only way to learn.

    BTW, if you're around, I'll be trying a new drysuit at Mansfield Dam this Sunday. Feel free to say 'hi'. (White Dodge Ram with a bedcover)

    -Tom


  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by rec2tec View Post

    BTW, if you're around, I'll be trying a new drysuit at Mansfield Dam this Sunday. Feel free to say 'hi'. (White Dodge Ram with a bedcover)

    -Tom
    Hi Tom - thanks for the advice and the invite... I'd come out to the Dam to say hi to you this Sunday, but I'LL BE IN FLORIDA!!! (yes, I'm just a little excited... leaving Friday am... for 12 days...). Next time, though.


  9. #79

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    I just want to follow up - I have dove with them and am not worried about their skills. I guess I was just thinking about what Devil's was like for me the first time, and how I was glad I was with an instructor and not another newbie... I guess I also just FORGOT that - doh! - hopping into the Ear doesn't have to be our first dive when we get out of the car. In hindsight, now, it feels like a pretty silly question! Thanks, tho, for the responses.

    ...and now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...


  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanna.Cordry View Post
    Hi Tom - thanks for the advice and the invite... I'd come out to the Dam to say hi to you this Sunday, but I'LL BE IN FLORIDA!!! (yes, I'm just a little excited... leaving Friday am... for 12 days...). Next time, though.
    Now that's just cruel.

    Black, cold water here I come...



 

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