Rewarding Good Behavior

[brockbr]

I'm sure a lot of us have been duped by people who display conservative attitudes. I know I have.

"full" cave should not be the goal of an open water diver. Cavern should be the goal of an open water diver. I took cavern/intro thinking I might fail them both. I just wanted to try my best, get a taste of what it was all about. I had no intention of ever moving on to apprentice and full until after I took the first two classes...and boy did I have a lot of work to do to get ready for them.

What is wrong with just taking a cavern/intro/basic class and stopping there? I think for people who really are going to stay in their limitations, don't necessarily live close to cave country, and want to apply the skills to different sects of diving this is a great option. Being pressured into apprentice and cave can lead to inexperienced divers who are "qualified" to do traverses, circuits, etc.

I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

[PerroneFord]

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

[TraceMalin]

I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

Good post.

[EGIB]

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

Very good point. Not picking on any instructors in particular, but I have seen a lot of cases where I wonder if they just wanted the money or to be done with the student. Everyone makes mistakes, including instructors.

[brockbr]

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

I know that post is slathered with sarcasm I, for one, don't subscribe to the "Non-FullCaver==Zero" mentality. You know who trained me, so you should also know that I read most of your posts and fully "get it"

[TraceMalin]

I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

You gave a good point to the fact that divers come into a cave class with prior experience which we often forget to think about when we stereotype a cavern/intro student.

There is something that I really wanted to point out, though, in hindsight.

I trained a group of divers who had been PADI OW for a PDIC AOW class. I started them in backplates and wings with long hose primaries and I took the time in their skills evaluation and update dives to run a mini GUE-F style training segment focusing on trim, buoyancy, propulsion and critical skills. These essential skills were to be worked on throughout their AOW course including diving as a team.

They opted to take a 25+ dive training track in which we would combine AOW with a series of applicable specialties. This was something I had been doing on my own before I went to an SDI/TDI instructor crossover course I was surprised to see that an agency had implemented such a track themselves as part of their advanced training rather than just a 5 or so dive AOW course.

Anyway, we covered the PDIC advanced skills of navigation, search & recovery, rescue, night diving, deep diving and boat diving and they did the course in doubles so they learned valve drills. I added a night diving specialty in which their level of difficulty increased from their first night of just light failures and out of gas emergencies at night in their AOW night dive to multiple failures and emergencies at night. We increased the level of difficulty from their deep dive in AOW (PDIC simulates deco diving in AOW) in which they had to manage an OOG and hold stops in midwater to a deep specialty which culminated with a double no-mask OOG DSMB deployment and having them make stops based on touch contact and knots on the line counting out their deco timing in their heads. We did nitrox in which they were subjected to an unforgiving MOD and tight window and refined their reel work with primary tie-off's secondary tie-off's placements, wraps, end ties and emergencies on the line.

We went to North Carolina and did their wreck specialty employing all prior techniques, etc. By the end of PDIC AOW and several PDIC specialties in which we finally ended up with 40+ dives IIRC, these guys were really solid!

They spent a season doing local NY/NJ shipwreck diving and then one guy decided to take cave training and did a "zero to hero" NSS-CDS course and then an IANTD trimix course. His friend caught up to him with cave training and they were skilled divers when it came to unified teamwork, lines, emergency scenarios etc. Not only that they became two of my most beloved friends in the process. They began staging and scootering and one guy was looking to always wall out caves and push and push because he had the heart of an explorer and wanted to go where no one had gone before.

But, one day, we went to Ginnie Springs and my friend who has done Eagle's Nest and other deep cave dives swam straight down the bore of the flow with a video camera. I was dumbfounded, as I pulled along the ceiling of the cave looking for used handholds and using the contours of the walls as help and shelter, to see him struggling in the flow in the middle of the tunnel all the way to the Lips where he clipped his video camera to the line in a state of fatigue. I could only imagine the CO2 headache he must have had! After the dive, we talked about strategies for moving into Ginnie, taking one's time, relaxing, controlling respiration and moving so that you don't wear yourself out, induce CO2, etc. He had no clue!

If he had spent some time at the Intro to Cave level, he would have been held back from big pushes into the caves and he would have learned the nuances of various systems, the best ways to get into them, and the art of swimming. Because he had the skills to complete full cave, he cheated himself out of the "wax on wax off" of cave diving & went right to the art of the scooter.

[brockbr]

If he had spent some time at the Intro to Cave level, he would have been held back from big pushes into the caves and he would have learned the nuances of various systems, the best ways to get into them, and the art of swimming. Because he had the skills to complete full cave, he cheated himself out of the "wax on wax off" of cave diving & went right to the art of the scooter.

Good post, and agreed - The experience comes from learning those nuances and repetition.

[TraceMalin]

Good post, and agreed - The experience comes from learning those nuances and repetition.

When I took classes with Chris Wright through NACD, he wanted me to be able to describe in detail at least 5 cave systems (2 high flow/2 low flow + 1 elective) at the Intro level, the location of the lines, the layout of the mainline tunnel, where the jumps were located, etc., before I could go on to Apprentice.

Knowing there would be a test later, I started to really pay attention during my fun and experience dives after my Intro course to everything I could. Huge help!

Of all my instructors in all disciplines of diving, he was the one who made me think the hardest and demanded the most of my brain.

[OFG-1]

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

Peronne, you KNEW the conditions associated with your certification the first night of class. You knew it during your cavern class, and made a personal decision to go ahead with the training. You have made a personal decision to discontinue your training. You agreed with the provisions of the program, and spent your time and money to proceed to the point you are at. All of the safe cave diving awards are many years old, and you know what they are. You are demonstrating the exact type of lack of personal responsability that we have been discussing. Your situation is all you, and your decisions. It's time to stop this. The only zero here is the chance you have of getting any agency of changing their standards because of your complaining. If you don't like it, finish your training, or at least, stop whining.

[netmage]

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

While I did suggest expiring a card, I did NOT specify back to zero...
In my opinion, the GUE approach to allow a renewable card is quite adequate... If you don't use it... you loose it... Its up to you to demonstrate to an instructor that you still have the attitude to continue in the overhead; and I'm not suggesting this take the form of a class... a simple logbook review and/or chat... And yea, there is nothing to prevent someone from forging any of this... Read my intent..., not the letter...

-Tim