Analysis of cave damage based on Double lines (occasional damage model)

[Gary]

I did a dive up thru Double Lines up towards Lin's Line today. For a 200' stretch of passage there was a 4' wide plowed zone in the floor with multiple marks covering every square foot of space for the entire length and width of (human accessible) passage.

Now knowing that all the divers there are all well trained cave divers who do only "occasional accidental damage" I thought it would be educational to find out how many divers have frequented this passage.

So we have 200' of passage 4' wide for a total of 800 sq ft
We have at least 6 or more (much more) marks in every square foot of passage (well actually I found one square foot with only two small marks)

Rather then compute a distribution curve for damage falling across the area in a random distribution necessary to so uniformly cover the 800 square feet more marks then can be individually counted and then covered over by other marks I'll just assume the 6 marks average were the only marks to actually be present.

Also for now I'll ignore the "known" that the caves heal themselves over time and assume a full 5 years during which most of this damage has appeared rather then assuming that it has all occurred in just a few years since the cave last magically "healed"

So that leaves us only 4800 marks in 5 years - or 900 marks a year in the space of 200'.

In the space of 200' "occasional accidental damage" probably couldn't occur in more then say 5% of dives. Otherwise we'd would call it "certainly every freakin dive" we mark the cave. Even at 5% every 200' of travel is hardly "occasional" - on a 1500' dive that would almost be once every dive.

So the "occasional accidental damage" at 900 marks a year in this short section of passage would be only 5% of the divers - so we have 18000 divers passing thru this passage every year! WOW!

So in our conservative estimate we must then know that over the last 5 years we've had at least 50 divers a day in this short section of passage that was once hailed as one of the most interesting and beautiful sections of the Devil's system!

Wow 50 divers a day! that's like 2 divers an hour every hour for 5 years. No wonder it looks like a dirt road used by trucks for accessing a construction site.

I must be really lucky because I've never met another team back there in all my years so I must just pick the times no one else is going. Cause it looks like people have been basically crawling in and out - or teams of instructors have been holding competitions there to see how many dead bodies with no buoyancy control they could drag thru there.


The really interesting thing is that in the next 200' of passage heading up to the Ice Room the damage is at least twice as bad. The floor isn't just marked up but actually ground into chunks!!!


It's a good thing that the 8 day cave training program manned by super-expert instructors and divers who don't need to have a refresher course because they know everything already is so successful. Imagine how bad the damage would be if they weren't so great at teaching skills and conservation!

SOO much traffic! Wow! I mean if it had been just the few teams a day that I thought went in there they would have to hit the floor at least once or twice in every 100' of that passageway and several times that in the next section. But we all know no divers so incompetent exist. Certainly no instructor would have passed them and no student would be so oblivious to the damage they are causing. They would know they were messing up the cave and stop. NO! They'd know better then even to try something so far beyond their skills.

Not that such a thing is beyond anyone's ability. Every cave diver has absolutely perfect buoyancy control and can learn everything there is to know in an 8 day course, masters it instantly, and never forgets.

I just didn't know there were so many cave divers....

[defunct]

If your goal is to quit cavediving because you make a stink about 8 day cave training and get the "tourist sites" closed. You're on the right path.

If your goal is to act as if you are the perfect cavediver and you have more knowledge and experience then anyone else cavediving. You're on the right path.

If your goal is to make yourself look like a Trey wannabe. You're on the right path.

If your goal is to make people more aware of their skills and try to effectively help the training system in the cave programs. You're way off the path.

I have seen you ##### and moan constantly the last 2 weeks, and you have not attempted ONE thing suggested to you in order to help you accomplish what you "say" your goal is... which is cavediver education on their impact on cave systems.

All I have seen is a lot of whining, and NO ACTION. Thus I can only assume your goal is to make such a big stink on a public forum that the tourist sites you dive will have to be shut down so they can be "protected" from this "HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE" that the cavedivers are doing to the caves.

As stated before, why don't you offer your time and setup a "Cavediver Effect" class where you instruct a group how to better control themselves in a cave so that they cause as little impact as yourself. Put your "money where your mouth is", effectively.

If you choose NOT to run a class to teach the other less skilled cavedivers how you and your very few friends are so good at your skills as to cause the least amount of damage out of most of the other cavedivers,

Thank you and have a nice day.

[OFG-1]

I did a dive up thru Double Lines up towards Lin's Line today. For a 200' stretch of passage there was a 4' wide plowed zone in the floor with multiple marks covering every square foot of space for the entire length and width of (human accessible) passage.

Now knowing that all the divers there are all well trained cave divers who do only "occasional accidental damage" I thought it would be educational to find out how many divers have frequented this passage.

So we have 200' of passage 4' wide for a total of 800 sq ft
We have at least 6 or more (much more) marks in every square foot of passage (well actually I found one square foot with only two small marks)

Rather then compute a distribution curve for damage falling across the area in a random distribution necessary to so uniformly cover the 800 square feet more marks then can be individually counted and then covered over by other marks I'll just assume the 6 marks average were the only marks to actually be present.

Also for now I'll ignore the "known" that the caves heal themselves over time and assume a full 5 years during which most of this damage has appeared rather then assuming that it has all occurred in just a few years since the cave last magically "healed"

So that leaves us only 4800 marks in 5 years - or 900 marks a year in the space of 200'.

In the space of 200' "occasional accidental damage" probably couldn't occur in more then say 5% of dives. Otherwise we'd would call it "certainly every freakin dive" we mark the cave. Even at 5% every 200' of travel is hardly "occasional" - on a 1500' dive that would almost be once every dive.

So the "occasional accidental damage" at 900 marks a year in this short section of passage would be only 5% of the divers - so we have 18000 divers passing thru this passage every year! WOW!

So in our conservative estimate we must then know that over the last 5 years we've had at least 50 divers a day in this short section of passage that was once hailed as one of the most interesting and beautiful sections of the Devil's system!

Wow 50 divers a day! that's like 2 divers an hour every hour for 5 years. No wonder it looks like a dirt road used by trucks for accessing a construction site.

I must be really lucky because I've never met another team back there in all my years so I must just pick the times no one else is going. Cause it looks like people have been basically crawling in and out - or teams of instructors have been holding competitions there to see how many dead bodies with no buoyancy control they could drag thru there.


The really interesting thing is that in the next 200' of passage heading up to the Ice Room the damage is at least twice as bad. The floor isn't just marked up but actually ground into chunks!!!


It's a good thing that the 8 day cave training program manned by super-expert instructors and divers who don't need to have a refresher course because they know everything already is so successful. Imagine how bad the damage would be if they weren't so great at teaching skills and conservation!

SOO much traffic! Wow! I mean if it had been just the few teams a day that I thought went in there they would have to hit the floor at least once or twice in every 100' of that passageway and several times that in the next section. But we all know no divers so incompetent exist. Certainly no instructor would have passed them and no student would be so oblivious to the damage they are causing. They would know they were messing up the cave and stop. NO! They'd know better then even to try something so far beyond their skills.

Not that such a thing is beyond anyone's ability. Every cave diver has absolutely perfect buoyancy control and can learn everything there is to know in an 8 day course, masters it instantly, and never forgets.

I just didn't know there were so many cave divers....

Gary, two thoughts

1 - Leave the math to people that know something about it. You have so many what ifs in this that your data is meaningless. Its nothing but another wild ass guess. Not that the floor isn't gouged, I'm sure it sure it is, but you have no way of knowing how old it is, or how long it takes the cave to "heal". I must confess that on principal I stay away from Devils, I hate what the Wray's have done to it, and refuse to support any of it so I am not familar with this tunnel. You leave out information such as, is this area only reachable by scooter? do people normally scooter through this area? is this a stage drop area? is this on a circuit that goes somewhere else? Once again, go and take photos, count the marks, go back in a month, 3 months, 6 months set up control points, and actually gather something meaningful if this is eating at you so much. Have you asked the people that actually take your money if they have had 50 divers a day over the last 5 years? Conservative estimate, this is personally biased BS again. If you get serious about actually setting up an experiment, let me know, I'll come over and help. You can use my camera if you dont have one.

2 - Once again, get over it. This cave is not yours, and you have no right to this. The people that gouged the bottom have the same right of access that you do. If you want pristene cave, going to Devils is stupid. Its like going to Dizzy-land to get away from the crowd. Continuing to bash 8 day diver training is just a exercise in mental masturbation, you lack the mass to get this changed. This will do nothing but generate 6 more pages of useless crap that demonstrates just how divided and scattered the people in this sport are.

Vertigo sink is for sale over here, and no one has seriously been in it in at least 10 years. Frank Richardson has 3500 feet of line in it, and never got to the end. Buy it, build a little house, and live happily with your own little piece of pristene cave. Don't let anyone else in. Then you can control the damage. Going to the circus and then complaining about the smell is just dumb.

[aainslie]

OFG,

Where and what is vertigo Sink?

[Gary]

Maybe DIC came thru that passage and wrote his name in the floor 4800 times and some expert cave restorerers came thru with some sort of tracked vehical (like an underwater Panzer tank) and drove it back and forth to restore the cave to it's natural state.

[DeWayne]

Gary, two thoughts

1 - Leave the math to people that know something about it. You have so many what ifs in this that your data is meaningless. Its nothing but another wild ass guess.

I hate to say it Gary, but I have to agree with the balding, old, fat guy on this one.

2 - Once again, get over it. This cave is not yours, and you have no right to this. The people that gouged the bottom have the same right of access that you do. If you want pristene cave, going to Devils is stupid. Its like going to Dizzy-land to get away from the crowd.

I don't just agree with OFG on this point, I embrace his words as being those of a prophet.

I do share your sentiment with regards to the zero to hero classes Gary, but I fail to see where whining and complaining on the internet is going to address any of the real issues. If you really want to make a difference, find a diver that needs to enhance his or her skills and offer to be their mentor. That would allow you to fix the problem one diver at a time by showing them why you believe conservation is a major issue that needs to be addressed. Keep in mind Gary that the only real way to eliminate our impact on the caves is to stay out of them. We disturb the land getting to the caves, as well as the bed of the spring runs where we enter and exit the water, to a much higher extent than what happens inside the cave (some could raise a conservation issue that this is just as wrong, and they would be just as entitle to that opinion as you and I are entitled to our own opinions.) You cannot teach conservation Gary (not effectively at least) you just have to live it in such a way that you inspire others to follow suit. Internet battles such as this typically do little more than cause division among the ranks.

[Gary]

If you really want to make a difference, find a diver that needs to enhance his or her skills and offer to be their mentor.

It's easy to teach on the internet.

I don't have to get in the water with someone to say: IF YOU CAN'T STAY OFF THE FLOOR STAY OUT OF THE CAVE! IF YOU ARE BANGING THINGS UP STOP! IF YOUR BUDDY IS SCREWING UP THE CAVE TURN THE DIVE!

That should just be obvious but obviously a lot of people missed that part of the class.


Maybe Andrew will go in and film the floor for me so you all can go count up the marks for your own analysis. We'll post it on the internet to show what kind of damage is being caused in the caves.


And I'm not talking about an 8 day zero to hero class here - I'm talking about the teaching job getting done by the instructors 2 days cavern, 2 days intro, etc. regardless of how it's arranged the divers are sucking. And they think they know everything there is to know and couldn't be bothered to get any better.

How about the announcement that someone who hasn't crapped out the cave "obviously never took a cave class". How many instuctors are teaching their students so well that they crap up the cave every class and think nothing of it? It's not merely acceptable - it's so commonplace as to be laughable to think it would be stopped.

No one is going to close the caves. As TJ said that's impossible. "Can you imagine how many sneak divers we'd have then???"

"You can't stop us from screwing up the caves!" you say? "Institute requirements and we'll find some way around them! Teach conservation and we'll ignore it! Close the caves and we'll sneak in anyway!"

The new mantra of the modern cave diver. Not as pretty as "Leave nothing but bubbles" but a lot more accurate.

[Rich]

If you really want to make a difference, find a diver that needs to enhance his or her skills and offer to be their mentor.

Hi DeWayne!

For the record, Gary spent a lot of time mentoring me when I moved to cave country, taught me a lot about cave conservation, broke me of some interesting habits and made me a much better cave diver......so let's not jump on someone without knowing a little bit more about them!

Unfortunately in this day of the "I know everything" cave diver, some people don't want to be mentored because they already think they're good enough. That's the real tragedy of this situation. I dive regularly with my local students because some one was kind enough to do it for me and I kind of feel like I owe it to the community to do the same. Plus that way I can keep an eye on their progression etc.......and this time they actually get to see the cave on the way out, even though it's hard for me to resist switching off lights and playing the usual fun and games.....

and one other thing, EVERYBODY needs to enhance his or her skills.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[stairman]

Were all aggrevated by cave damage but to complain about it on a public forum wont patch things.Without a doubt gary is very concerned.Deliberate vandalism is the worst,Ive swam the grooves in the mud at Orange Grove for a few years and hate it as much as the other guy but accidents and ignorance go hand in hand down there.Public traffic produces wear and tear on all surfaces from trails in national forests,to asphalt highways.People crashing into the ceiling or scraping the bottom should be held accountable but thats almost impossible.Their buddy may give em hell about it on the surface later but the damage is left for gary and all others to see.Personally when I tire of the subject online I dont click on to read about it anymore.Its garys right to type on and on about it if he chooses too.I try to see the beauty in our caves and avoid being bothered by some things that are out of my control.[two inmates looked out through prison bars,one saw the ugly mud on the ground and the other saw the beauty of the sunset]its all what you make of it and if change is not likely,so be it.Randy

[DeWayne]

It's easy to teach on the internet.

I don't have to get in the water with someone to say: IF YOU CAN'T STAY OFF THE FLOOR STAY OUT OF THE CAVE! IF YOU ARE BANGING THINGS UP STOP! IF YOUR BUDDY IS SCREWING UP THE CAVE TURN THE DIVE!

That should just be obvious but obviously a lot of people missed that part of the class.

Sure it is easy to teach on the internet, talk the talk and a few lemmings will listen and follow. It is much more efficient to attempt to teach someone face-to-face, but then you have to possess a bit more skill than merely being able to sound like you know what you are talking about. Don't get me wrong Gary, I think the message you are attempting to get across is a valid one that needs to be heard, I just doubt the efficacy of the approach.

Maybe Andrew will go in and film the floor for me so you all can go count up the marks for your own analysis. We'll post it on the internet to show what kind of damage is being caused in the caves.

You get me the numbers and I will be more than happy to crunch them for you.

And I'm not talking about an 8 day zero to hero class here - I'm talking about the teaching job getting done by the instructors 2 days cavern, 2 days intro, etc. regardless of how it's arranged the divers are sucking. And they think they know everything there is to know and couldn't be bothered to get any better.

How about the announcement that someone who hasn't crapped out the cave "obviously never took a cave class". How many instuctors are teaching their students so well that they crap up the cave every class and think nothing of it? It's not merely acceptable - it's so commonplace as to be laughable to think it would be stopped.

No one is going to close the caves. As TJ said that's impossible. "Can you imagine how many sneak divers we'd have then???"

"You can't stop us from screwing up the caves!" you say? "Institute requirements and we'll find some way around them! Teach conservation and we'll ignore it! Close the caves and we'll sneak in anyway!"

The new mantra of the modern cave diver. Not as pretty as "Leave nothing but bubbles" but a lot more accurate.

Let's face it Gary, the only way to end the problem is to cease the commercialization of cave diving instruction and find some way to keep everyone out of the caves (and yes I agree with the point that this is not likely to ever happen.) No matter how good we are, everyone makes an impact every time they enter a closed environment such as a cave. I don't need to crunch any numbers to know that commercialized instruction is what has led us to such wide extremes of personalities among those who cave dive; it has kept us safer and increased our ranks. Look at the reaction to the Cow incident, most everyone expressed feelings of anger, but only a few expressed true feelings of sadness at the loss of a natural work of art. Could that be due to the fact that everyone sees the clay bank a bit differently? Some see it as art, to others it is a geological record, but most will only see it as dirt.

I totally agree with you that there is a real problem that could be fixed by better instruction, but first you have you fix the instruction machine. Too many see dive instruction as their ticket to free diving, and think that just because they have the skill set to do the dives this automatically infers that they would be an effective instructor (I really wonder just how many cave diving instructors know what pedagogy is, much less have a personal approach mapped out.) This is why it is so easy to teach on the internet, all you need focus on is your presentation.

When it comes to conservation Gary you have to show folks why you follow the course you do and them leave them to make their own decisions. It is a real shame that no one has yet to talk about what was really lost at Cow.