NSS-CDS vs the world

[rddvet]

offering training that is not far superior to any other agency causes conflicts of interest with the other goals of the CDS.

That is by far one of the best sentiments I've heard on the matter. Obviously even GUE can have some sh--heads that tear up caves, but if the goal of an agency is cave conservation, then you should be the standard of training by which all other agencies are compared.

I think without a doubt training agencies are having to be compared to the standard GUE sets.

[Kelly Jessop]

I honestly don't see one and think that offering training that is not far superior to any other agency causes conflicts of interest with the other goals of the CDS.

From a survey I did that was published, I found that many of the for profit agencies people identified they trained with acknowledged their cave conservation training was somewhere between 0 minutes to as much as 30 minutes, with the median amount at 15 minutes. The CDS trained divers showed a higher aptitude in this area. Now that the CDS and NACD(before being defunct) are teaching less, there may be a reason we are identifying more cave damage, which is a common complaint on the forums. The "n" from the surveys was enough to have some statistical significance.

[Kelly Jessop]

This. I am continually amazed at the lack of respect for the agencies that pioneered training for cave diving. In the 70s, cave diving training was developed to address fatalities and introduce safe techniques. You didn't train for the sake of training itself, pretty cards, or the cachet of an training organization that is perceived to be prestigious or "better."

.

The CDS and NACD took the sport from the 70s where it was going to be outlawed, and made it safer. Because cave diving developed a safety record and the nonprofit agencies provided line etc, that set up the ripe conditions for the profit agencies to enter the sport.

[OFG-1]

I think without a doubt training agencies are having to be compared to the standard GUE sets.

Only in the minds of GUE trained divers.

[bamafan]

From a survey I did that was published, I found that many of the for profit agencies people identified they trained with acknowledged their cave conservation training was somewhere between 0 minutes to as much as 30 minutes, with the median amount at 15 minutes. The CDS trained divers showed a higher aptitude in this area. Now that the CDS and NACD(before being defunct) are teaching less, there may be a reason we are identifying more cave damage, which is a common complaint on the forums. The "n" from the surveys was enough to have some statistical significance.

I would argue that if the CDS was not a competitor of these agencies they might through some lobbying actually include more conservation promoted by the CDS. Most if not all CDS instructors also teach for these other agencies and should be able to lobby for more conservation to be taught.

[Kelly Jessop]

I would argue that if the CDS was not a competitor of these agencies they might through some lobbying actually include more conservation promoted by the CDS. Most if not all CDS instructors also teach for these other agencies and should be able to lobby for more conservation to be taught.

<place surprise emoji here>..... if I follow this logic then if the CDS which has safety part of their mission,if they quit promoting safety, then the other agencies would do safety better...????
Firstly I would hope all agencies would promote conservation, mutually exclusive of the existence of the CDS. Obviously there is a problem with the comments of the cave damage that is evident and noted on different forums.

[tbone1004]

<place surprise emoji here>..... if I follow this logic then if the CDS which has safety part of their mission,if they quit promoting safety, then the other agencies would do safety better...????
Firstly I would hope all agencies would promote conservation, mutually exclusive of the existence of the CDS. Obviously there is a problem with the comments of the cave damage that is evident and noted on different forums.

I think the best option is for CDS to get out of training altogether. Set the standards for cave training as a centralized organization and then they can get all of the agencies behind them to coordinate conservation and improvement projects instead of alienating them and relying on the NFSA to coordinate the big projects where everyone is behind it

[FW]

I think the best option is for CDS to get out of training altogether. Set the standards for cave training as a centralized organization and then they can get all of the agencies behind them to coordinate conservation and improvement projects instead of alienating them and relying on the NFSA to coordinate the big projects where everyone is behind it

They do set the standards, almost every agency has copied NSS-CDS training standards.

[tbone1004]

They do set the standards, almost every agency has copied NSS-CDS training standards.

They did, not do, and they didn't actively set the standards, their standards were copied. May seem like semantics, but it's a HUGE difference

Add to that political friction that the CDS has created in the last decade, and a lot of instructors from the other agencies don't want to associate with the CDS. That has caused reduction in overall membership because the other agencies don't show that the CDS is doing anything useful so why join? The CDS, because of the training program, has an outward appearance of being an "exclusive" group vs an "inclusive" group and that is painfully reflected in the membership numbers...
I'd much rather see the "training" focus of the CDS go away from actual training of cave divers and move towards trying to coordinate the agencies, and potentially offer specific high-level training that the other agencies don't/can't offer. I.e. all the big project/expedition type work, or conservation specific training etc.
The internet killed the whole "don't advertise cave diving" nonsense, so no point in fighting it, especially with the for-profit agencies doing just that, so the CDS instructors can't really compete because of that restriction, and then the instructors don't really have a way to make a living as a CDS only instructor, honest question, how many only teach for the CDS anymore? I can't think of any off the top of my head, and while I'm sur ethey exist, I just can't think of any. All the ones that I know teach for at least one other agency

[SUB ZERO]

Many thanks to everyone for their help. Did not mean to sound like a troll. It is my ignorance, trust me.

GUE Fundamentals is an excellent primer into the basic skills ALL cave and tech divers should have, regardless of how they choose to progress afterwards. I have various levels of Tech, Cave, up to Cave DPV training through multiple agencies, Fundies was the most challenging class overall for me and set a great foundation to help me focus on the important aspects for the other courses I've taken since.

This has been my observation as well. I have spoken to people who have taken Fundies and it has changed the way they dive. I have no doubt that this is the flagship course of GUE that sets it apart from other agencies but after getting a Tech pass from Fundies, does the rest of GUE training offer anything superior to the courses everyone else is teaching? In the videos they all seem to be doing the same drills like tie offs and blacked out masks. GUE students seem to have their #### together more than others because they have gone through the Fundies experience.