NSS-CDS vs the world

[FW]

They did, not do, and they didn't actively set the standards, their standards were copied. May seem like semantics, but it's a HUGE difference

Add to that political friction that the CDS has created in the last decade, and a lot of instructors from the other agencies don't want to associate with the CDS. That has caused reduction in overall membership because the other agencies don't show that the CDS is doing anything useful so why join? The CDS, because of the training program, has an outward appearance of being an "exclusive" group vs an "inclusive" group and that is painfully reflected in the membership numbers...
I'd much rather see the "training" focus of the CDS go away from actual training of cave divers and move towards trying to coordinate the agencies, and potentially offer specific high-level training that the other agencies don't/can't offer. I.e. all the big project/expedition type work, or conservation specific training etc.
The internet killed the whole "don't advertise cave diving" nonsense, so no point in fighting it, especially with the for-profit agencies doing just that, so the CDS instructors can't really compete because of that restriction, and then the instructors don't really have a way to make a living as a CDS only instructor, honest question, how many only teach for the CDS anymore? I can't think of any off the top of my head, and while I'm sur ethey exist, I just can't think of any. All the ones that I know teach for at least one other agency

You need to read rule #6. You are in violation of it, and for that matter Bamafan is as well. Anymore agency bashing, and you both will find your selves in Time Out.

[rddvet]

Only in the minds of GUE trained divers.

I'm not GUE trained at all. I personally would do it all over again as a GUE diver eventhough I mostly dive sm if I had to. If you look at number of consistently quality, safe divers as a whole, GUE puts out the highest ratio as compared to number of students. Every country I've dove in, the GUE divers have the best mentality and skills. This may be a generality, but it's one I think is very accurate.

[Kelly Jessop]

I think the best option is for CDS to get out of training altogether. Set the standards for cave training as a centralized organization and then they can get all of the agencies behind them to coordinate conservation and improvement projects instead of alienating them and relying on the NFSA to coordinate the big projects where everyone is behind it

That is a great idea, probably utopian at best. One problem, is the non profit agencies do derive membership from instruction, so if they quit training, then they are completely dependent on the for profit agencies to facilitate membership. Have the for profit agencies given back to the cave diving community, and can we expect them to help support the role of the nonprofit agencies? There isn't a past history. For example, we have discussed the conservation role, even though the materials are there, their education role is trace at best. For safety, such as lines and signs, this has fallen on the nonprofit agencies. Land owner relations, with the threat of the closure of Eagles Nest, the nonprofit agencies played a central role. Personally the nonprofit agency has validity in training , with many of their standards are copied by others, and some need to be, such as the amount of training in cave conservation as previously mentioned. I will take the devil's advocate role and say perhaps the for profit agencies need to get out of training, especially when I hear the constant forum banter about poor quality students and instructors, and level of cave damage, knowing that the for profit agencies make up the majority of instruction.

[tbone1004]

Many thanks to everyone for their help. Did not mean to sound like a troll. It is my ignorance, trust me.



This has been my observation as well. I have spoken to people who have taken Fundies and it has changed the way they dive. I have no doubt that this is the flagship course of GUE that sets it apart from other agencies but after getting a Tech pass from Fundies, does the rest of GUE training offer anything superior to the courses everyone else is teaching? In the videos they all seem to be doing the same drills like tie offs and blacked out masks. GUE students seem to have their #### together more than others because they have gone through the Fundies experience.

this is coming from a non GUE diver, so from looking at their stopping points for courses and from talking to friends that have gone through it, here is my take.

GUE's cave program is a bit weird and it's not for everyone. It is very comprehensive, but it puts you in a weird "purgatory" compared to the rest of the cave community. GUE's focus is on creating divers for their big projects which require more advanced skills. As such, their Cave 1 program puts you basically at intro level except with a cave fill you can go 800psi instead of 600psi but still basically intro with no nav decisions allowed. This isn't enough for most divers, so you want to go to the "next step" to at least get on par with most of your buddies.
With the rest of them, you get full where you can do nav decisions and go to thirds which is nice. Most don't do a lot of complex nav, but the ability to do things like the crossover circuit in Peacock, or the Grand Traverse *can't do that on a third of two thirds, but is allowed by GUE otherwise*.
With GUE's cave 2, it takes you to the full cave level, but then adds survey, decompression, and bottom stages. Deco is almost mandatory with a lot of systems *Mill Pond, Ginnie, etc* due to the depth but is covered in a lot of full cave programs, but survey and bottom stages are a lot more than most cave divers want and are ready for right at the get go.

One other option that I know several buddies have done is take fundies, then take cave 1 with GUE. If at such time you decide you really want to do sidemount, or that GUE's Cave 2 is too "much" for where you want to be diving but feel limited by the Cave 1 limits, then most instructors will allow Cave 1 to be equivalent to at least intro, often up to apprentice, and then will let you complete full cave with another agency. That gets you GUE's training, then you can branch out a bit after should you feel you want that.
Talking to Lauren Kieren may actually be a good thing for you as she recently crossed over to GUE and I believe is soon ish going to be a cave 1 instructor. She came out of the training department with TDI and still teaches for other agencies so can give you an interesting perspective.

[tbone1004]

You need to read rule #6. You are in violation of it, and for that matter Bamafan is as well. Anymore agency bashing, and you both will find your selves in Time Out.

what was inflammatory or uncivil? There was certainly no intend to arouse angry or violent feelings from others, simply stating facts and what I have witnessed

[tbone1004]

That is a great idea, probably utopian at best. One problem, is the non profit agencies do derive membership from instruction, so if they quit training, then they are completely dependent on the for profit agencies to facilitate membership. Have the for profit agencies given back to the cave diving community, and can we expect them to help support the role of the nonprofit agencies? There isn't a past history. For example, we have discussed the conservation role, even though the materials are there, their education role is trace at best. For safety, such as lines and signs, this has fallen on the nonprofit agencies. Land owner relations, with the threat of the closure of Eagles Nest, the nonprofit agencies played a central role. Personally the nonprofit agency has validity in training , with many of their standards are copied by others, and some need to be, such as the amount of training in cave conservation as previously mentioned. I will take the devil's advocate role and say perhaps the for profit agencies need to get out of training, especially when I hear the constant forum banter about poor quality students and instructors, and level of cave damage, knowing that the for profit agencies make up the majority of instruction.

yeah, good luck on getting them out of it. Unfortunately the other agencies don't really mention the CDS, especially those that have instructors that have been alienated from the CDS....

[OFG-1]

James, you may as well add some cave porn to this thread, maybe make it more informative.

[Kirk]

Outside of cave diving circles, not much is known about NSS-CDS. Other agencies with roots into cave diving (GUE/UTD) are well respected but not much is known about NSS-CDS. I wanted to know:

That depends on the circle of people with whom you spend time. I suspect most people in my caving grotto (all of whom are NSS members) know about NSS-CDS, but not about the other training agencies.

[Kelly Jessop]

yeah, good luck on getting them out of it. Unfortunately the other agencies don't really mention the CDS, especially those that have instructors that have been alienated from the CDS....

Could be right.

[oya]

I genuinely don't understand the "CDS should get out of training," argument. Especially as framed by, "then they can set the standards and drive the training agencies."

Why don't we get a bunch of independent experts who don't know how to train people to train cave divers?

Wouldn't, "Set the gold standard?" be a more desirable goal?