Ginnie Cave DPV

[joe k]

Had a really nice experience with James Draker I've found that the occasional class, even on skills I've already addressed has the merit of refocusing me, introducing me to little tricks that don't necessarily appear on a syllabus & exposing me to various players that might be doing dives I aspire to. You might be too advanced/experienced for my POV to be applicable, but as an old dog & a cave tourist (non local)...every trip involves de rusting.....

[MichaelAngelo]

No idea what you are rambling on about Garth. I?m sure no one has heard of me. I tend to keep a pretty low profile on the interwebs.



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I am pretty sure everyone has heard of the Dark One.

[Draker]

I am pretty sure everyone has heard of the Dark One.

I?ve heard he spends much of his time basking in the soft glow of a bright light.



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[Nitrogenius]

The problem is that I see people being trained by a number of people I don't think should be training at all almost every time I'm in cave country.

Let me guess.. these are even vetted by the "all so great vetting and recommendation process" of some (well nowadays maybe even only one remaining) agencies ?


While I surely appreciate to see more cave porn, I will make one small statement in regards to the "bashing process" and then be quiet again..


I have been cave trained in various areas of the world (Sardinia-Italy(Protec), US-Florida and Mexico), I also did various cave diving trips to those areas and others..
oh and btw most of these were done by local cave instructors


Nowhere I have witnessed and to some extend also participated in so many violations of the basic cave diving rules as in Florida and nowhere else such violations where handled so "normal"..


How does this relate to training quality?
and does this potentially relate to skills ?

[Kelly Jessop]

Let me guess.. these are even vetted by the "all so great vetting and recommendation process" of some (well nowadays maybe even only one remaining) agencies ?


While I surely appreciate to see more cave porn, I will make one small statement in regards to the "bashing process" and then be quiet again..


I have been cave trained in various areas of the world (Sardinia-Italy(Protec), US-Florida and Mexico), I also did various cave diving trips to those areas and others..
oh and btw most of these were done by local cave instructors


Nowhere I have witnessed and to some extend also participated in so many violations of the basic cave diving rules as in Florida and nowhere else such violations where handled so "normal"..


How does this relate to training quality?
and does this potentially relate to skills ?

Interesting
Would you say the violation of basic cave rules is a function of the training? the agency? the instructor? Or could one say that people receive the proper training from the instructor and agency standards who the instructor uses,but perhaps complacency with the rules comes from imitation and/or peer pressure?

" some (well nowadays maybe even only one remaining) agencies"- you do know that the nonprofits, and I am going to include both, ceased being the primary training agency a long time ago. So, when making commentary on skill level, cave damage etc, this could be a factor (or not)...but...

[rddvet]

Interesting
Would you say the violation of basic cave rules is a function of the training? the agency? the instructor? Or could one say that people receive the proper training from the instructor and agency standards who the instructor uses,but perhaps complacency with the rules comes from imitation and/or peer pressure?

" some (well nowadays maybe even only one remaining) agencies"- you do know that the nonprofits, and I am going to include both, ceased being the primary training agency a long time ago. So, when making commentary on skill level, cave damage etc, this could be a factor (or not)...but...

I think it's a mixed bag and varies from person to person. One example is a well known instructor in cave country that seems to put on a very thorough course for students. This same person had to be reprimanded by a guide in Mexico for repeated unsafe practices such as not marking lines in very difficult areas as well as coming way off the line without running a line. It appeared the instructor was just complacent in their own diving.

[Kelly Jessop]

I think it's a mixed bag and varies from person to person. One example is a well known instructor in cave country that seems to put on a very thorough course for students. This same person had to be reprimanded by a guide in Mexico for repeated unsafe practices such as not marking lines in very difficult areas as well as coming way off the line without running a line. It appeared the instructor was just complacent in their own diving.

Sometimes I find comparing Mexico with Florida is apples and oranges. The locations don't completely compare well and the styles are different. Yes I know cave diving is cave diving,but I have seen things done in Mexico that I would never think of doing,but have been told that something was bad, that I perceived as safe, and actively practiced in Florida. No saying one is better than the other, but just saying different.

[bamafan]

I agree that I think people get sloppy over time. I have also seen an instructor brag about not running a primary in HITW. A little uncomfortable for me but I can say that I normally don't run one in JB. I have blind jumped back onto gold line in a cave I know well such as the King's Canyon jump. I know it isn't right and it definitely isn't what I was taught. Now I am ultra conservative in my gas planning compared to many and have actually been asked why I was carrying that much gas.

I really don't believe there are instructors teaching not running a primary or doing blind jumps but people get complacent. I am sure this occurs in other areas as well.

[tbone1004]

Interesting
Would you say the violation of basic cave rules is a function of the training? the agency? the instructor? Or could one say that people receive the proper training from the instructor and agency standards who the instructor uses,but perhaps complacency with the rules comes from imitation and/or peer pressure?

" some (well nowadays maybe even only one remaining) agencies"- you do know that the nonprofits, and I am going to include both, ceased being the primary training agency a long time ago. So, when making commentary on skill level, cave damage etc, this could be a factor (or not)...but...

100% the fault of the training agencies
They are training instructors that shouldn't be instructing, hell I've seen a few that shouldn't be cave diving
They are sticking to styles of training that are no longer applicable to the modern students that are taking the training instead of evolving. This is particularly obvious in "full cave" being an ego cert even though most divers would be far better served with something like what NAUI allows in Cave 1.
They are not putting out any sort of "update" training to existing instructors to maintain quality standards and many instructors are not "fun diving" on their own, and only ever dive when they teach

NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, TDI, etc. they're all at fault

[rddvet]

Sometimes I find comparing Mexico with Florida is apples and oranges. The locations don't completely compare well and the styles are different. Yes I know cave diving is cave diving,but I have seen things done in Mexico that I would never think of doing,but have been told that something was bad, that I perceived as safe, and actively practiced in Florida. No saying one is better than the other, but just saying different.

This has nothing to do with fl vs mx. It was an instructor being lazy or complacent. The guide was in charge of a group. At one point the guide spoke to the instructor due to what that instructor was doing and due to complaints by those on the trip. After not taking the obvious hint, the guide had to have a serious conversation with the intructor and then chose to not take the group to some sites because of the lack of following basic rules.
It may have been ego over complacency.


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