A controversial concept, but maybe a good one.

[cerich]

The latest line of thinking has the following assumptions:

1. An instructor who fails a lot of students must be really, really good, just as a plumber whose repair jobs regularly leak must be a really, really good plumber. An instructor's job is to teach. If an instructor admits a qualified student into a properly designed class, if the qualified student works diligently, and if the student was properly instructed, then that student should pass the class. If not, at least one of those conditions was not met. If a specific instructor has a lot of students failing his or her classes, my bets would start learning toward the quality of the instruction.

2. A student who fails a class and then goes to a different instructor is looking for someone with lower standards. In reality, he or she might be looking for a better instructor. He or she might not have had the necessary beginning skills needed for success, took time off to work on them, and then switched for any of a number of reasons. I know someone who went for cave training with very little previous dive experience and could see he wasn't going to make it. He took a year working in a tech diving program to improve his skills. His original instructor had been of the "drill-sergeant-curse-your-every-mistake" mode of instruction, and when the student decided he was ready to return to cave instruction, he chose someone with a less confrontational approach to instruction.

Further to your post and Trace's above, some instructors and students gel, others don't. It's a matter of style and personalities involved. I am laughing at what you perceive to be a military style course. You need to separate selection style courses from content style courses. One thing I much prefer from military classes is the team teaching approach, when one instructor is not as successful as imparting a skill or concept, another is often capable. Don't mistake this for the team pile on used when the leadership cadre decided that somebody isn't suited however.

However your point in 1 above "qualified student into a properly designed class" is problematic. Frankly without diving with the prospective student, there is no manner for an instructor to actually know if somebody is actually qualified versus certified. The student has the same problem with instructors with the additional burden of "they don't know what they don't know". Often you will see an instructor that completely lacks skills but makes up in qualifications and a "name" that sure would seem like a great choice.. they sometimes are not.

[JohnAd]

However your point in 1 above "qualified student into a properly designed class" is problematic. Frankly without diving with the prospective student, there is no manner for an instructor to actually know if somebody is actually qualified versus certified.

I absolutely agree with this, Chris. I think cave instruction has the biggest problem of all diving instruction. If a student shows up, has paid for the class, and is thoroughly unqualified to begin the class, the instructor has a real problem. Perhaps there just needs to be a more thorough description of the kinds of skills that are needed before the class begins than I have seen in the past. When I was doing my first day of cavern class in the Ginnie Springs Ballroom, my instructor was approached by someone who was interested in starting a class. We later saw him in the open area of the ballroom practicing his skills while kneeling on the bottom. That diver was a long way from being ready to start cave training.

I am not a cave instructor, but I am a tech instructor. A few years ago, a new student came to me for beginning tech classes, and I was under the impression that he had just the typical minimum requirements for the course. He had all his own equipment already, which was a good sign. As is typical, he struggled with buoyancy and trim at first, and we had to work on that. As is typical of someone with that issue, he struggled to do the valve drills. Eventually he got it all down, and he went through the whole program. Near the end, he said something about his early training that stunned me. When he first came to me, he had already taken and passed GUE Fundamentals. If I had known that, I would have certainly had higher expectations about the skills he was bringing into the class. I think that shows how very hard it is to predict what a student is bringing into the course in terms of skills.

[MichaelAngelo]

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

[Draker]

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

A few good pics could really give this thread a boost...




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[tflaris]

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

I already have the email typed up.


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[Superlyte27]

I figured it would be Rosie O'Donnel with Trump all over again. She never left either.

[chrpai]

When he first came to me, he had already taken and passed GUE Fundamentals.

What endorsements were on his card? If he got a rec pass in a single tank and wetsuit and later learned drysuit and doubles on his own or got a tech pass in doubles and wetsuit and later went back and learned drysuit on his own or if he simply stopped diving for a long time and hadn't continued maintaining those skills I could totally see this as possible. A fundies card is a good sign but it isn't a pair of magic underwear.

[chrpai]

Case in point... I recently met up with an instructor from Houston who is a far more accomplished diver then I am. He's won awards for cave rescues and dove with people like Kirill Egorov. I was sure to tell him up front that I was in a brand new drysuit and trying LP95s for the first time and that my trim and buoyancy might be off as I tweak things. I was also sure to tell him my deco training is from IANTD not GUE Tech 1. I don't want to ever get into the water with people and misunderstandings or missed expectations on what to expect. Having a fundies card just means that I went through that level of training nothing else.

[Draker]

Case in point... and dove with people like Kirill Egorov.

Kirill has been known to slum with some real riffraff. This isn?t always a benchmark of distinction.


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[chrpai]

Kirill has been known to slum with some real riffraff. This isn?t always a benchmark of distinction.

Good to know. I guess my point wasn't to build this other diver up but to describe that he might have certain high expectations on what to expect from a GUE diver based on that. Obviously I wouldn't be at that level. Perhaps this wouldn't be obvious if someone thought that GUE divers were mythical unicorns or something.