Actually, for me. It's none of that. I take death pretty bad. Not sure why. Call me a big baby, but death sucks. Death that could easily be avoided really bothers me. Even people I don't know.Originally Posted by cerich
This is not a binary choice. You can have 2 well trained divers make 2 independent and separate errors. Or 1 mistake and a medical issue. Or 2 medical issues. Or a group error that leads to multiple deaths.
Look, there is a core group of people on the forum, and you know who you are, that have a personal agenda to prove that certain instructors and agencies are inferior to others. The problem is that all you have is bias, you have no meaningful data. You have biased observations, pre determined conclusions, hearsay, occasionally videos of someone having a bad day, and real arsehole attitudes. And this just grinds along over and over and over. Every accident this is dredged up from the bowels of your prejudices and spewed all over the place.
Get over it. As much as you hate it, training agencies exist and compete, standards are written, instructors evaluated, students taught, and the machine rolls along just as it has for 40 years.
If you want an agency to do better, get involved. Spend your time, effort and money trying to improve standards and instructor evaluations.
And Superlyte, you should take it personally. I do also, however, after 43 years of seeing friends make mistakes I have learned that it is errors compounding themselves leading to panic that is most often the cause, not poor instruction. One of my close friends died in Peacock years ago, before arrows, because he was solo and jumped onto a different line without noticing it. Berman and Tillman did something to blow their gas plan. The GUE guy picked up the wrong tank. The 2 guys in EN had something so onerous happen that they chose to leave gas, a rebreather, and a scooter behind them and bolt for the door. You cannot blane their instructors.
And Andrew, I am pleased to see you still lurking around, come see me.
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
A controversial concept, but maybe a good one.
I think a more effective problem to solve is instructor shopping by failed students. There should be some sort of way of identifying those that move around trying to get certs they shouldnt have. That doesnt mean not giving people a chance. There should just be a way of identifying those people so there can be clear instructor to instructor dialogue about why the student failed. Obviously it cant be assumed a failed student is a bad student, but there are those that are failed due to dangerous mentality and the new instructor should be made aware.
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That is the one I was mainly referring to, I thought I had heard of one more.. But quite irrelevant to the point..
Point was even with good safe protocols and doubtlessly high quality training people do die in caves. All are human after all and stuff happens.
What could be drawn from such fatality towards the quality of the training or trainer getting a "black mark"?? --> nothing or an unjust view at most..
Yeah I totally agree.
Please look into GUE's quality management and the way they ensure that the standards are enforced.
No student gets a card without interacting with HQ/QM and providing feedback for the class.
On the other hand I've heard from non-GUE students who have never done a lights out OOA exits in their cave class.
How is it possible that something like this can happen systematically without the agency's QM catching it?
Also when someone dies in a cave, don't you think the agency should do it's homework and take a close look at the situation and try to understand what happened?
Any fatality should trigger an automated process within the corresponding agency to eliminate any possible wrongdoing by their instructor.
I am not GUE trained and don't even hardly dive bm. I think the industry could definitely learn a lot from their success rate. They don't seem to have issues with their divers taking ow divers in the overhead or having divers who regularly bust 1/3rds especially in classes. They can also pull certs from divers and have quality control after classes. They are apparently doing something better than most agencies.
Oliver, you keep flogging this, and I admit that I have not read everyones training standards, however, let me ask you this. In order to share air that implies a dive team of at least 2. Lights out implies that you have 6 light failures during the dive, and with helmet lights, probably more. Lights are so far superior than what we had years ago, but even so, I have never seen or heard of this.
Isn't this akin to having 3 regulator failures and having to buddy breathe to get out? Are there more realistic skills, such as lost line recoveries that should warrant more attention? What about a wing failure in a group of 2, I have had that happen 2400 feet in a cave, swimming in a wet suit. I understand confidence building, however, why are you so focused on such a low probability event?
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
Their instructors you can't blame but what's with the cases where the stundents died during the course or right after while they were in the water with their instructor? There where 3 of thoses cases with Euopean instructors just recently.
Stuff like that was probably always going on but it was easier to sweep it under the rug before people had the internet. Just because it's been like that for 40 years doesn't mean it's good.
And how would I go about that? Should I buy a IA*** instructor rating, pay them a membership fee and then ask them to change their business model? Getting involved in a non-Profit is one thing, getting 'involved' in a business is another.
Well, you have been pissing and moaning about IANTD for years, how has that been working out for you?
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
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