P II

[kensuf]

Wow, very different view. While I agree naui cave1 isn't for all, I definitely don't see the zero to hero you're talking about. I see it as a way to allow for slow progression. Maybe that's just my mentality over others.

I guess I don't understand how you would define zero to almost hero. For NAUI Cave 1, Cavern is not a pre-req. It's a 5 day course designed to take someone without overhead experience to the equivalent of the apprentice level. Upon completion of the course, the graduate is allowed to dive 1/3rds in doubles with up to two navigational decisions at a maximum depth of 100' without going into decompression.

There are experience requirements prior to enrolling in the course, including 75 lifetime dives and completion of Intro to Tech (or equivalent). But let me restate for emphasis, Cavern is not a pre-req and at the end of program the student is allowed to dive up to 1/3rds and two navigational decisions.

It has it's place, but it's not a slow and steady progression program.

We chose it for the "slow progression" scenario.... but Ken has a point, the Cave1 does jump a bit ahead of other agencies... and he is a NAUI instructor. The concept was that we could stay Cave1 for as long as we needed without having to get cards re-issued (seems to be a problem of late) and progress to next level when we both felt that it was time.

Intro to cave cards do not expire. The NSSCDS and NACD have a "Basic Cave" card that does expire, but it can be renewed. Same thing for the Apprentice card.

And there's something to be said about just doing some gold line diving to gain experience and move beyond the "holy crap! I'm in a cave!" heebie jeebies before progressing onto complex navigation.

Honestly, speaking as someone that took a ten year break from cave diving, I would be in favor of a card that expires unless you show you have had some recent experience. I think GUE requires you to do a certain number of dives per year to maintain a particular level, and having to go hang out with someone for a day once every 3 years just to tune up and demonstrate you still have proficiency doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Benderr]

I guess that is a big difference between the two of us then... cause I can make it to olsen and then some on my return before hitting 3rds wearing shorts and a t-shirt.... and believe me I am toasty with my chosen exposure protection.... I am SO sorry that the rest of you get cold in 72 degree water.... I'm good down to 68 and then below that I need a 3mil... at 45 I need a 5mil. Still not sure how a drysuit would lower my sac.

It doesn't matter that you feel toasty. What matters is that your body reacts to cooler temps by shunting blood away from your extremities to keep your core at the proper operating temperature. At the end of the day, even if you never felt cold, you will be more tired than the guy that wore a wetsuit, and the guy that wore a drysuit. In the water, it makes breathing, decompressing, and fine motor skills less efficient.

[Superlyte27]

Holy crap man.

I just read the last 5 pages.
Tim: shut up man. Swallow your pride and the BS and go dive with these guys. If you could get past the BS they'd show you things you couldn't imagine. Right now is the precipice. You could have someone truly great take you under their wing and pave the way to awesomeness, or you can be ostracized and be one of those guys who is gone in 3 years. Dude, back up. Take door number 1. Today can be the day that things change for you as 3+ great divers give you a pass on the BS and let you start over. Do it.

[Draker]

I doubled it by mistake... I've been running in the .95 to .97 range.

But then you flatter me... you follow me on FaceBook

Drysuit in hand... getting ready to goto Gamble for required repairs. but when I DO decide to dive with it it will be with Ice Diving as the intended goal... not to protect your ego which seems to be the bigger picture here since you suggested I just wear a skin so I LOOKED like I was in a drysuit, you were not concerned about my staying warm near as much as how it made you look when we both were at the same site?? and I'm not the one freezing.

I"m pretty sure this whole thread went down hill when you suggested I should pick other mentors and quick asking stupid questions on CDF.

Just a thought.

Tim

No worries.

Just gives me more free time to feed my high horse and refill my douche.

[rddvet]

It's a 5 day course designed to take someone without overhead experience to the equivalent of the apprentice level. .

I guess I'm misinformed based on the quality of instructors I had. I was told by 3 of my instructors that intro to tech was required. I filled that pre-req by diving with a mentor who signed off on intro to tech based on our diving. I was also told by all 3 instructors that cavern was required to be a separate course from cave 1. Maybe I confused my instructor's standards with NAUI's. I was never under the impression that a 5 day zero to hero was an option. Based on that info, I agree with you.

[twaldo]

Holy crap man.

I just read the last 5 pages.
Tim: shut up man. Swallow your pride and the BS and go dive with these guys. If you could get past the BS they'd show you things you couldn't imagine. Right now is the precipice. You could have someone truly great take you under their wing and pave the way to awesomeness, or you can be ostracized and be one of those guys who is gone in 3 years. Dude, back up. Take door number 1. Today can be the day that things change for you as 3+ great divers give you a pass on the BS and let you start over. Do it.

Pete,
You, Draker and Ken are all very experienced divers and all have valuable skills that can be shared. That being said, I have some trust issues with you which I am willing to overlook/work on; I don't want to dive somewhere with you that I don't already have personal experience with because we are honestly going to have to build up to that. So I would love to do some dives with you at Ginnie or Peacock. That won't happen if you can not accept my dive kit. Which I don't think you really care about anyway.
Ken is an AWESOME guy and has never personally attacked me for how I dive, even though he is a NAUI instructor his foundation is GUE and has on a couple of occassions offered to dive with me when I do get a drysuit. I WILL take him up on the offer when I get to the level that I can meet his expectations. Draker however has seemed to have a vendetta against me from the start, every post I have been involved in on CDF has been a great interaction until he questions why I am a diver, cave diver, human or protoplasm goo.... I never want to get into arguments online, in person, across continents but somehow (yes I know, don't respond and its a null issue) he brings out the defensive side of my persona. Draker is also GUE but he od'ed on the cool-aide. He has single handedly encouraged me to NOT wear a dry suit because of all the harassment. I don't expect him to dive with me if he isn't comfortable with my not wearing a drysuit, but he does need to lay off the personal attacks. Eventually, because of my personal goals I will be diving in a drysuit, but don't expect that this is something that will happen on every single dive I do in cave country.

So lets do this... This thread is the end.... I won't personally attack you or Draker's personal diving style (I think Ken and I already had an understanding/mutual respect). You and I do some dives in any of the local popular springs and work on the whole trust issue and Draker can lay off of me until I naturally progress through the NAUI Cave2 certification which will have to include drysuit because even I would get cold on a 30 minute deco....
With that being said, and ANY of you see me do something horrendous while diving... please offer suggestions(except get a drysuit), if you don't point out stupid things I'll never learn.

Can I get an agreement to that?

Tim

[twaldo]

Maybe I confused my instructor's standards with NAUI's. I

Don't feel bad.... trudging through all the different standards made it really hard to decide which path to take... it appeared (Ken corrected me on this) that NAUI was the only way to go where we would have the time to work on the skills after class. We had already been Cavern for 3 years so it isn't like we did a zero to half hero certification. We were already comfortable in an overhead and were more than ready to take the next step. The 2 big things we looked at were diving 3rds and no expiration.... which sort of went together with having the time WE needed to progress.

Tim

[floridabob]

This has turned weird.

And, Tim, you do not know James nor Pete at all based on the 126th post.

Now as for Nakatomi, Im pretty damn sure I remember a video he posted of a rediscovered JB where he or his buddy (dont remember which but I'd bet him) made ceiling contact while scootering. More than once because I was pretty friggin' self righteous after it ended.

Bob

"great interaction until...." Doubtful

[twaldo]

This has turned weird.l

Actually I do like Pete but we DEFINITELY need to work on some trust issues from before I got Cave1. The big thing though is I can go forward from #126 knowing that I extended the peace offering, I am DONE with being attacked every time I ask an honest question. Poke fun at me yes... I'm good with that, I'll even poke fun at myself.

I do remember my first couple of dives as being WAY task loaded versus being in class and being SUPER focused JUST on what ever skill I had to perform. We all know that when you become task loaded buoyancy is the first thing to go. So I"m sure I did bump the ceiling a couple of times, but I sure didn't silt bomb a passage. So I don't think anyone should get harassed over an occasional ceiling bump aside from some good humored prodding. Now go down to Mexico and do a couple of ceiling bumps and you might deserve a hard kick in the butt, but we're not in Mexico

[nakatomi]

Now as for Nakatomi, Im pretty damn sure I remember a video he posted of a rediscovered JB where he or his buddy (dont remember which but I'd bet him) made ceiling contact while scootering.

Yeah, I always take video of myself with an invisible 40' selfie stick.
As to my buddy in the JB2 "rediscovery" video and the ceiling, I believe that stuff raining down is called percolation. If you look closely you can see silt pockets in the ceiling everywhere, it's not like this area is getting traveled a lot.

There was in fact another video posted, however that one was in HITW, where the stage of a buddy rigged in a certain top mounted fashion hit the ceiling several times. He changed that right after seeing the results on the video.

Either way, blaming me for other peoples diving style is pretty awkward.

More than once because I was pretty friggin' self righteous after it ended.