Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[Kelly Jessop]

Re:clothes pins, what are people s preference wood vs plastic and how do you personalize them

Wood always because they don't break and strong spring. Generally I buy the ones that are little more textured so I know the difference,but nowadays I one of a few people who still use them, so personalization hasn't been a problem.

[Nitrogenius]

Out of curiosity for those using clothspins.. Are these and if so how personalized so you can identify them in no vis?

Given that there had been no input other than the last post of Kelly to this yet, I assume you don't personalize them for no vis?

[Kelly Jessop]

Given that there had been no input other than the last post of Kelly to this yet, I assume you don't personalize them for no vis?

I am reluctant to say because nobody copied this,but I would shorten I arm of the clothes pin by 1 centimeter, which would me to know the difference.

[tbone1004]

so here are my thoughts based on reading all 100+ posts on the matter.

We have 4 current markers and here are my thoughts on them.

Arrows: I think these should be permanent markers put in by the line committee or whoever on the gold line, and should be the only arrows in the cave

Cookies: Restricted to use on T's to mark your exit portion of that intersection

REM's: replace cookies and arrows for divers to tie into for jumps. This saves having to deploy two objects, and removes the risk of people putting them in backwards, or in cases like P1, aiming them at their exit not the nearest. To be ignored by all except the team that tied it in in the first place. Pretty easy to ID in this fashion because the line comes into a distinct side of the REM. No need to personalize because it's either your line tied to it, or not your line tied to it. If you can't ID your own reel, well you have bigger fish to fry.

Clothespins: Choice between these and cookies based on your personal preference.

This allows 3 types of markers
1 permanent
1 to tie reels into which because it is creating a temporary T, instead of having to drop 2 markers, you have one that indicates your direction of travel, not the nearest exit. Only useful because it removes potential confusion from an arrow, and the need to drop two markers if using a cookie.
1 to provide a reference marker on a T to ID the side that you came from, no need to have direction on this because you have three options at a T, go to the one with the marker on it and keep on going. You get personal preference on these because they aren't indicating anything to anyone else.

Seems to be pretty simple to me, whether people agree with it or not, but this is the simplest way I can see to remove any and all confusion.

[kwinter]

So tbone and I are almost on the same page, but I do have to ask why you specify cookies for a T on the exit side rather than a REM. What advantage does a cookie have at a T while the same advantage goes to a REM at a jump?


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

[tbone1004]

at a T when you are marking them, you are just indicating your direction of travel. You could do the same with a REM, but it adds to the potential confusion, so with a Cookie being a true non-directional marker it helps with the "permanent direction", "temporary direction", and "non-direction". Also allows for easier on the fly deployment since you don't have to verify which way it is pointing

[kwinter]

I would counter that at a T where direction really isn't important, it doesn't matter which way your personal REM indicates (to you only) direction. So deployment is actually faster since you are only carrying one type of marker. I'm still not convinced there is any advantage to using anything except a modified cookie or REM.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

[Wizard]

Glad to find out what a REM is before I found one in a no vis situation. It's an uncircumcised line arrow. Me thinks we are putting too much crap on a life line. With the larger size it. Would make a dandy glory marker.

[OutOfTest]

Over here in the UK, contrary to popular belief we do have complicated passage also. One particular example I can think of there are 23 junctions in the first 600ft of the sump.

In line with popular belief, zero vis is the norm, rather than an emergency.,

Most lines over here have absolutely zero fixed arrows etc

We seem to manage fine with clothes pegs alone.

Though jumps are a bit more of a rarity here.


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[Nitrogenius]

Though jumps are a bit more of a rarity here.

Sure If silt out is the standard in the mudhole you describe, finding such Jump would be an interesting task


I guess T-Marking is the least issue anybody has as it is quite straight forward and nobody uses an arrow for these anyways..


Quite interesting perspective though 23 navigational decisions on 600' in zero vis..
That is definitely special..