Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[FW]

I'm sure he's getting rich off of them like Forrest is raking in the dough with cave arrows.

However it is too bad I didn't get a patent. Since the arrows are all made by gear manufactures, I never made any money at all on them.

[kwinter]

I agree that there is an advantage to using what you already own, and I was not suggesting that people throw away arrows and buy new REMs. But for new cave divers and students, what would be the disadvantage of buying a bunch of cookies and marking them to make them personal and directional? What would be the downside to carrying only one type of marker instead or 2 or 3 or 4? What would be the disadvantage of not having directional arrows?

[Kelly Jessop]

What are the benefits of other markers that REMs do not provide? This is a serious question. When would it be a disadvantage to put a marker down that is 1) personally identifiable and 2) directional to the owner (or team) but non directional to anyone else?

I can easily see the use of arrows, cookies and clothespins in certain circumstances, but can not see the disadvantage of using a REM.

I think of the 1000's of successful cave dives with only clothes pins and line arrows. Where I think all the things like line navigation aides are wonderful, at what point is there too many, and a tendency to over complicate something.

[LiteHedded]

just seems like a superfluous doo-dad to me that serves no purpose. i'm never going to want to do a dive without real cave arrows in my pocket so it comes down to do i want these instead of cookies.
for me, the answer is no

[OFG-1]

I agree that there is an advantage to using what you already own, and I was not suggesting that people throw away arrows and buy new REMs. But for new cave divers and students, what would be the disadvantage of buying a bunch of cookies and marking them to make them personal and directional? What would be the downside to carrying only one type of marker instead or 2 or 3 or 4? What would be the disadvantage of not having directional arrows?

What is the disadvantage to just taking your old caths and clothes-pinning them to the line, nozzle side pointing out? That is personal and directional, and no one will take them.

[rddvet]

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody.

Yes, but you're a dumbass if you follow a REM that you don't know is yours. That's the point, they should only mean something to the person that placed it. Just like I can look at a person's cookie and figure out what it's saying, but it ain't mine so I don't follow it.

I don't think the REM is the end all be all, it's just another option that some prefer. In places like Mexico it can be better than a simple cookie and can be safer than a contradictory arrow.

[Nitrogenius]

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

They provide an option to tie a Jump into a line directly on the marker but not using an arrow and still giving yourself and only yourself/your team your exit reference.
A cookie not so much. You could achieve the same with 2 cookies (one to tie in and one to give direction.


Where is this usable and of advantage over tying into the standard (an arrow)?
At exactly thos passages where your direction is different from the arrows pointing to the nearest exit.


BTW for me a REM is exactly what it stands for: A Reference Exit Marker.
Mine are actually cookies, from which I can tell my exit direction by personalization. I do not carry unpersonalized cookies..
So to say I am using only arrows and REMs in a cave, no cookies..

[LiteHedded]

They provide an option to tie a Jump into a line directly on the marker but not using an arrow and still giving yourself and only yourself/your team your exit reference.
A cookie not so much. You could achieve the same with 2 cookies (one to tie in and one to give direction.


Where is this usable and of advantage over tying into the standard (an arrow)?
At exactly thos passages where your direction is different from the arrows pointing to the nearest exit.


BTW for me a REM is exactly what it stands for: A Reference Exit Marker.
Mine are actually cookies, from which I can tell my exit direction by personalization. I do not carry unpersonalized cookies..
So to say I am using only arrows and REMs in a cave, no cookies..

why do you need to do that? sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me

[Nitrogenius]

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody. Everybody knows that the long side is the exit side.

Edit: I'm not saying it's a HUGE deal, but I'm saying they're very certainly NOT non-directional markers.

Yes, but you're a dumbass if you follow a REM that you don't know is yours. That's the point, they should only mean something to the person that placed it. Just like I can look at a person's cookie and figure out what it's saying, but it ain't mine so I don't follow it.

I don't think the REM is the end all be all, it's just another option that some prefer. In places like Mexico it can be better than a simple cookie and can be safer than a contradictory arrow.

Exactly. Victor you seem to forget the most essential point of a REM! When you find one on a line (no matter how stressed or not) you KNOW that this is not a permanent marker, so you KNOW you MUST only trust your own markers, so you MUST verify whether such REM is yours or not. If it is not yours or even if you are unsure, you are safer to ignore it as if it was not there at all and find the next arrow / cookie negated arrow to confirm direction (if you where unsure, which you should not as I agree with Oliver on this aspect)

[kwinter]

I think of the 1000's of successful cave dives with only clothes pins and line arrows. Where I think all the things like line navigation aides are wonderful, at what point is there too many, and a tendency to over complicate something.

just seems like a superfluous doo-dad to me that serves no purpose. i'm never going to want to do a dive without real cave arrows in my pocket so it comes down to do i want these instead of cookies.
for me, the answer is no

These are both fine statements of why arrows, cookies and clothespins are good. But they do not address the issue of what advantage they have. As for having too many kinds of markers, maybe over time personal arrows, cookies and clothespins would phase out and fade away in favor of a single multi-purpose marker. Arrows will always have a place as permanent markers.

What is the disadvantage to just taking your old caths and clothes-pinning them to the line, nozzle side pointing out? That is personal and directional, and no one will take them.

Ok, finally a unique solution. But there aren't enough She-P users, so you would be limiting the number of women cave divers. And we would need a system to identify the type of intersection based on size. And then there would be the liars that are so embarrassed by their shortcomings that they place an incorrect marker.