Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[FW]

I completely agree... The point is that REMs are ALWAYS intended to be personal markers so anyone coming across one should figure out whether it is theirs and if not, completely ignore it and move on. Period, end of story.

Bil's REMs are fine. The only problem I see is someone being cheap, and trying to modify arrows to serve as REMs.

FWIW, I agree with Nitrogenius about personal markers.

[lv2dive]

I'm pretty sure one can get arrows for much less $$ than REMs so I don't see that as an issue!

Personally I think there is a place for all three types of markers (even though I was not taught the use of REMs! Gasp!). But (it should go without saying but...) everyone on the team has to be on the same page about the utilization of the markers from both a placement and removal/non-removal perspective, including times of stress eg lost buddy.

Bil's REMs are fine. The only problem I see is someone being cheap, and trying to modify arrows to serve as REMs.

FWIW, I agree with Nitrogenius about personal markers.

[victorzamora]

But coming across a REM will always indicate that it is not a permanent marker that someone has placed there, so stressed or not one should be trained enough to understand that.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


Somewhere there has to be a line for SELFRESPONSIBILTY..
So I have no remorse whatsoever that someone else could mistake MY Rem for theirs. It is their F+++ Up not mine..
I myself will make very sure that I recognize my own!
Different story with arrows pointing in a different direction than the closest exit, even if this is how I was taught so also there would be merit, but I can see the point of using a Rem in such situation over an arrow..
But now starting to argue that a Rem could create an issue for someone else?
Come on!

That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.

[victorzamora]

Well, that may be straightforward in Florida where you would be unlikely to find arrows pointing you through a sidemount passage to the nearest exit.

In other countries, especially in Mexico, I see issues with this approach.

Imagine this scenario.

You're diving along a line that has no arrows whatsoever, other than jump arrows (if any). At one point you come across a back to back arrow, indicating there is now a closer exit ahead.
So lets assume that 150' after that you place a jump with an arrow pointing to that new exit, an exit that you have never actually seen and verified.

The next thing is an unsuspecting diver who, for some reason or the other, gets onto your jump line from other side (towards the main entrance), for example through a side passage. This diver now sees your jump and the arrow, pointing to the new exit. The diver may know nothing about the opposing back to back arrows and the directional change, believing this is his exit.
Good luck if he is in backmount, is stupid enough to trust the arrow and the exit goes through a SM restriction.

So maybe the solution is, drop an arrow (if so preferred) only when the nearest exit matches your exit. In case the nearest exit is not yours and/or unverified, tie into a cookie instead of an arrow and use a second cookie (or better still a clothespin) to mark your exit side.

That's absolutely a mistake on the part of the other diver. Cave arrows in Mx point towards the closest exit. Navigational errors are not the cause of the arrow as long as the arrows agree. If you have conflicting arrows, that's a problem....but if all arrows in the area point in the same direction then there's no fault of whoever dropped the one arrow. If you take someone else's jump, follow someone else's arrow (that the jump is tied to) but ignore the permanently installed ones.....all while doing a dive in a part of the cave you're unfamiliar with and diving towards an unverified exit? I'm sorry, that's clearly the fault of the diver. Regardless, I'm thinking about changing my procedure over to all-cookies anyway...as mentioned above.

[nakatomi]

That's absolutely a mistake on the part of the other diver. Cave arrows in Mx point towards the closest exit. Navigational errors are not the cause of the arrow as long as the arrows agree. If you have conflicting arrows, that's a problem....

In my opinion conflicting arrows are not a problem. I've come upon many arrows that pointed in the (to me) wrong direction. Usually I try to figure out why they do that and usually (not always) there is some obvious reason for it.
Either way, I don't care where the arrow points, I just mark the T's.

I believe it is inherently dangerous to blindly trust any arrow that is installed. A diver should know at all times which direction is out and be 100% sure about it. If there is just the slightest bit of doubt at any point in time, it's time for a sharp exit.

[LiteHedded]

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

[nakatomi]

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

You can use them as a mini slate and write something on them, plus point the wider side towards the exit or towards your favorite passage or wherever.

[LiteHedded]

You can use them as a mini slate and write something on them, plus point the wider side towards the exit or towards your favorite passage or wherever.

but cant you put a cookie towards your exit?

[Kelly Jessop]

.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


!

When I am referring to a stressed team making a rapid exit, I am not always referring to the people who placed it,but another team that may encounter it in an emergency. This was tested by a cave instructor who put line arrows on a section of line, with a couple conflicting line arrows, and simulated a rapid emergency. The team missed the conflicting markers because their duration to study the marker was a nanosecond.

[Kelly Jessop]

Personally I think there is a place for all three types of markers.

I would make it 4, clothes pins are very viable