Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[Aotus]

If it makes you more comfortable, without adding risk to others, then by all means use them!

[rddvet]

I really do not understand why we do not all switch to REMs.

I have never had a love affair with cookies and have never even had one. I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play).

Arrows used for this same purpose can lead to a confusing situation since my direction of exit may very well not be towards the nearest exit. I believe that this exact issue has caused some fatalities in the past.

REMs are non directional markers that will not cause confusion. They can also be used as directional markers for the user only. I was first introduced to them a few years ago in Mexico and had to buy them instantly. I have not used anything else since.

I think arrows should still be used as permanent markers. and REMs for everything else.

OK, maybe the occasional clothespin for scootering in big passages would still be needed, but at lease use ones that have a "vise grip" tension.

When you bought your REMs didnt they tell you its like fight club. First rule is we dont talk about REMs

You need to keep in on the down low because other than you, I'm the only person I know of locally using REMs and I love having a very distinctively different marker than all of the other ones I pass.

All joking aside, I dont get why people havent adopted them here either.


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[victorzamora]

One problem is availability. Every shop has cookies and arrows. Few have REMs. The other one is the hipster problem. If everybody is following the same convention based on exclusivity then it no longer means the same thing. REMs are designed for not confusing people that aren't "in" on the meaning. If everybody gets "in" on it, it means the same as an arrow. There ARE better solutions with just cookies and arrows

[gearhound]

I think most of the cave divers in Mexico are "in" on REMs, and I don't think it creates any confusion. Arrows are still used to mark the cave lines and REMs as personal markers. I always use them for setting up my jumps and marking my Ts. And with the long bottom times that you sometimes get, you frequently can get to a point on a dive where you're closer to a different exit than the one you entered at. The arrows change direction. I then "kill the arrow" with a REM and point that in the direction of my known and confirmed exit. The permanent line arrow still points to the nearest exit, I've referenced my exit, and I haven't added any confusion to another diver. Your buddy also always confirms the intent of each marker you've placed.

They are popular enough that Aqualung has started manufacturing and selling them. http://www.aqualung.com/us/gear/acce...1-line-markers

[diver42]

when there's another reference point, cookies mark the exit direction by being on the exit side of that reference. That's also true of an arrow that points in a direction other than your exit: A cookie on the blunt side tells you that your exit is the other way.

I think I see the benefit of having one at a jump, where the existing line arrow points in a direction other than your exit; so if you mark the jump with an arrow pointing in the opposite direction, it interferes with the general navigation of the cave. Is that the only problem it solves, or are there others? In zero viz, would you be comfortable referencing the slightly longer side? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Dsix36]

My REMs also have some identifying notches cut in them. This makes it that much more "directional" for ME even if the vis gets low. I have similar notches on all my reels also.

[rddvet]

My REMs also have some identifying notches cut in them. This makes it that much more "directional" for ME even if the vis gets low. I have similar notches on all my reels also.

Mine do as well and my buddies understand what my marks are telling me.

I get what Vic is saying but disagree. People who use rems on a regular basis know that they are a nondirectional marker that have a directional meaning to their owner. Even if they become more popular, their meaning will not change. They're very popular in Mx and don't confuse anyone there.

It seems that people that dive alot in Mx like rems because you will come across things there in which a cookie or arrow aren't ideal. It seems people who haven't had to "kill" an arrow place a marker that contradicts the arrows significantly don't get their usefulness.

[Teppo]

They are popular enough that Aqualung has started manufacturing and selling them. http://www.aqualung.com/us/gear/acce...1-line-markers

Anyone know where to get other then the Apeks one´s in Europe? I need few to show to my students. Lots of people who do they training in Mx are introduced to them and are using them

br. Teppo

[nakatomi]

I wonder what would be the issue with just cutting off the tip off your personal line arrows? That way still make them fully functional, but clearly (using haptic feedback) it would be clear that without a tip, they are not arrows but personal markers.
As a matter of fact, I think I will just go ahead and "circumcise" my arrows, just to not offend anyone when I use arrows for my jumps.

As to the Madison Blue incident at half hitch. Why would anyone put a line arrow there that would point back into the cave? It doesn't make sense at all.

The bottomline to me is to not lose awareness ever, so that you don't need any of the existing (or random) markers in the cave to lead the way out.
All navigational decisions would need to be marked with your own markers anyway.
I've come upon several T's where the arrow had been twisted in the line, making it point in the wrong direction.
Imagine someone has a bad day and fumbles on the line, twisting the arrow and silting the passage out.
If you trust that arrow on your way back, it will be a very bad day.

[Kelly Jessop]

I wonder what would be the issue with just cutting off the tip off your personal line arrows?

I contend there is no such thing as personal line arrows, once on the line it is a fixture of the cave, and as the person placing it, you have the responsibility to make sure it meets convention. For example, people have said for years they do things to make their line arrows personal with notches etc, but an team exiting in a slit out or lights out that is stressed, will not take the time to feel for these personal indicators. Hence, if this team feels a marker that seems to have any direction, even with the tip cut off, they will head in that direction, which hopefully is not counter to other prevailing line arrows- which we seem to have with some training that is occurring right now.