Comfort Level in Crappy (very low to no) Vis

[Aotus]

We'll open volume T to the chapter on trimix,that will solve that problem

Good that someone's found a use for them.



I've been thinking I should put some red reflective tape on my cookies to help them stand out, and also if the tape is a triangle on one side (of center) I get some direction from them too. I'd really like some of those directional cookies from gosidemount but they're expensive. What do you make cookies out of? Maybe I can make a bunch.

[FW]

Good that someone's found a use for them.



I've been thinking I should put some red reflective tape on my cookies to help them stand out, and also if the tape is a triangle on one side (of center) I get some direction from them too. I'd really like some of those directional cookies from gosidemount but they're expensive. What do you make cookies out of? Maybe I can make a bunch.

The first arrows were made of polystyrene sheet, sawed on a table saw. Be careful, you could loose a finger! I think the first cookies were made from the same material. The prototype cookie Danny gave me looked the same as the early arrows. I suspect any stiff plastic sheet would work, like PVC, etc. Talk to Greenwood60, he has been making arrows, etc. with a 3D printer.

[Aotus]

The first arrows were made of polystyrene sheet, sawed on a table saw. Be careful, you could loose a finger! I think the first cookies were made from the same material. The prototype cookie Danny gave me looked the same as the early arrows. I suspect any stiff plastic sheet would work, like PVC, etc. Talk to Greenwood60, he has been making arrows, etc. with a 3D printer.

One day I'm sure I'll get a 3D printer, at least in my lab if not at home. But, for now, ordering prints online is expensive, so I will stick with the old primitive method of using my hands. A table saw seems a lot easier than what I was thinking, but would have to wait until I visit family over the holidays (grad students don't pack many power tools when they move around the country). I'll keep thinking. Thanks for the tips.

[Greenwood_60]

I was just about to chime in on the "I've let the cave" marker. The one time I've been in that situation I left a backup light clipped to the line, flashing. Can't miss it. Even in anything but an absolute blackout silt out, you can't miss it. It should be obvious that means that I'm concerned about my buddy, but I'm OK.

I could print some of those directional-non directional markers... but unless it's a change in form or function, I'd pass. I'm still using my printed arrows, goodman, and helmet light brackets.

[PeterVICEG]

One day I'm sure I'll get a 3D printer, at least in my lab if not at home. But, for now, ordering prints online is expensive, so I will stick with the old primitive method of using my hands. A table saw seems a lot easier than what I was thinking, but would have to wait until I visit family over the holidays (grad students don't pack many power tools when they move around the country). I'll keep thinking. Thanks for the tips.

Consider using a band saw or a jig saw. Much safer!

Peter

[Aotus]

I just read a really nice article about low/zero vis by Al Heck in Articles and Opinions. I liked especially that he wrote honestly about being nervous in some situations, so practiced "incrementalism" to advance in new systems. This finally pushed me to bring up something that's been bothering me for a few months...

I found the article refreshing because, from the perspective of a new car diver, I often get the impression that timid feelings, nerves, feeling anxious about what's ahead, are sort of shunned or treated as signs that cave diving is not for you. Ironic, since the other message a new diver gets is that a healthy "fear" (or instead the euphemism "respect") for the cave is important to prevent complacency. Stressing again that this is only my own experience from reading forums and blogs, I found that in searching for information that would help me to advance, I hit a wall of rather unhelpful doomsaying. Rather than, as one person's signature line says "I do dangerous things, safely", I felt like the vast majority of what I found was written by people who were trying to convince me that starting down this road was a bad idea, too dangerous, you're gonna die you idiot. Uneasy about cave diving, now that we've all told you it's a death sentence? Well now you're DEFINITELY going to die, and you're going to ruin it for the rest of us so get out of here and stop asking questions.

After turning to actual manuals, agency-produced materials and books, away from the online chatter, I found the information I needed. How to be safe, accident analyses, equipment issues, and candid descriptions of what it's like to be in a bad situation without the shaming.

Maybe as an Intro diver I'm not yet established enough to call for more open engagement with interested newbies. I've only just found the helpful, friendly side of the community a few months ago (thanks *most of*CDF!). Getting over the negativity hump, I have a lot of fun corresponding with friends and fellow divers when I can't be in the water. I wish my impression of the community wasn't tarnished at the beginning, but I'm happy I've had an opportunity to experience it better since and the information I've gained from the interactions has made me a better diver. I want to add that I understand the desire to impress upon new cave divers, or those interested, that it's a serious, dangerous hobby/sport/method of exploration, I do. But, as a relative newbie, FWIW, I think the community as a whole would benefit from putting greater emphasis on quality training when speaking with interested newbies, rather than relaying a death threat from the reaper in the cave. This would encourage more engagement with new students, which is important when someone is so new that their "silly" questions are not so easily found in the books...like, "what books?" This is not to say every diver should be encouraged to cave dive, but through limited text on a forum it is difficult to judge the quality of a diver. Rather than judge, perhaps it would be better to share wisdom and direct towards proper instruction.

Back to the topic of this thread, I think the options of the poll send a mixed message, though obviously with good intentions. There is an option to say that I am new, and still not perfectly comfortable with low/no viz. But, there's no room to say that you are an established cave diver, safe, practiced, but you get nervous sometimes (which is where the author of the article I read stands). The suggestion is that you're either a newbie that gets a little nervous but you're working on it, or you're a vet with ice in your veins (OR, you're never cave diving again). Russell added a very good note that I expect probably describes most experienced cave divers - sure, you know what to do, but who WANTS to be in zero vis!? This sort of candor humanizes the community much better than the lofty posturing and threats of impending death. I'm glad to be part of this community of human cave divers.

[jeandiver]

Singing songs is a huge benefit for in-head timing. It really helps calm you down because you should know exactly how long the song takes. There was a point where I had to mentally time a bunch of tasks between 3-8 minutes. I'd use different combinations of songs and could get SUPER close. In cave diving, maybe pick a pair of songs that add up to 5min. You need to know every word well and not stumble/hesitate, that's the biggest problem I had at first....and the more lyrics, the better. You want unique lyrics to not repeat, and you don't want a ton of music between lyrics. Maybe agree with a buddy: If we get lost, two songs after separation you're clear to surface without me.

Someone say Singing? or Humming?
Jeano

[nakatomi]

[...]I often get the impression that timid feelings, nerves, feeling anxious about what's ahead, are sort of shunned or treated as signs that cave diving is not for you. Ironic, since the other message a new diver gets is that a healthy "fear" (or instead the euphemism "respect") for the cave is important to prevent complacency. Stressing again that this is only my own experience from reading forums and blogs, I found that in searching for information that would help me to advance, I hit a wall of rather unhelpful doomsaying. Rather than, as one person's signature line says "I do dangerous things, safely", I felt like the vast majority of what I found was written by people who were trying to convince me that starting down this road was a bad idea, too dangerous, you're gonna die you idiot. Uneasy about cave diving, now that we've all told you it's a death sentence? Well now you're DEFINITELY going to die, and you're going to ruin it for the rest of us so get out of here and stop asking questions.

Zach, on your road to becoming an experienced cave diver, you will automatically find the answers to all your questions
Now here is my opinion, just for the sake of it, and I’m sure many people won’t agree with it.

Everyone has a comfort zone and a point at which he/she will feel uneasy or possibly even downright scared. This is normal and human nature.
In cave diving your skills, perception and your comfort level will evolve over time and based on your experiences diving. This is why it's so important to dive as much as you can and to go step by step.

In my opinion it is also important to challenge yourself in a positive way, that is dive within the full range of your comfort level on a regular basis. Doing so will not only help you build a solid foundation of experience, but also increase your comfort zone, enabling you to become a more capable and safe cave diver.

As to the poll and the answers to it, I guess some people have a hard time being honest about themselves. Based on my own experience with dive buddies, I can tell you most people are not half as fearless as they claim to be, which is probably a good thing.

Of those who progressed and can now safely and fearlessly do dives that others cannot do, many seem to forget the long and winding road that brought them there.

[Squirrel Girl]

Back to the topic of this thread, I think the options of the poll send a mixed message, though obviously with good intentions. There is an option to say that I am new, and still not perfectly comfortable with low/no viz. But, there's no room to say that you are an established cave diver, safe, practiced, but you get nervous sometimes (which is where the author of the article I read stands). The suggestion is that you're either a newbie that gets a little nervous but you're working on it, or you're a vet with ice in your veins (OR, you're never cave diving again). Russell added a very good note that I expect probably describes most experienced cave divers - sure, you know what to do, but who WANTS to be in zero vis!? This sort of candor humanizes the community much better than the lofty posturing and threats of impending death. I'm glad to be part of this community of human cave divers.

There's not a good way to predict all the possible responses ahead of time. Some become apparent as people post. I completely urge people to post a new poll to answer different or more specific questions.

[NorthWoodsDiver]

Can we define "low" vis? On the line, but can see it? Can see your arm but not your hand? Can see the glow of your light, but effectively nothing else? Some people consider <30' low.

Zero vis doesn't bother me. The thought of returning through new-to-me restrictions in zero vis shortens my dives. I won't pass through two new-to-me zero vis restrictions in one dive. Not confident enough yet.

If I extend my arm and can't see my hand I would call that "low" vis. If you can't see your hand, one your mask, without a light shining, that is "zero" vis.