Intro training seems to differ with agency and/or instructor

[LakeCityDiver]

After reading a very long thread about Intro and Traverses I want to start this thread.

This comes from doing 5 dives 2 different days with a total of 5 other Intro buddies. What I noticed is all of us were trained with different limitations though we were all "Intro" certified.

All but one buddy dove sidemount at which his training was restricted to 1/6ths, one other diver in SM said he was trained to 1/6ths also. The rest of us including my self was trained in 1/3rds. I dive 1/3rds and always have.

My card nor training limits me to distance down the gold line. I am not trained in jumps,gaps,circuits, or traverses but as far as my training allows distance is not an issue. 2 guys said they had 1000ft limitation??????

The buddy skills were an issue among everyone but that I guess was due to lack of consistency is diving together.

there was other discrepancies about allowable uses of reels off the gold line and it got me thinking hmmmmm we are really at different levels per say.

QUESTION:
1)Have you noticed a difference in intro training from diver to diver???

2)Also what is your stand on """(using an intro certified diver as an example)""" an intro diver preforming skills that he has been trained for that may exceed the typical "Intro level training" but not yet finished full cave???

I have no problem taking a back seat to a diver that wants to dive 6ths and only 1000ft in. But on the other hand I see a lot of "Intro can only do this and not that" blah blah blah here on this forum. Because one is only Intro Certified does not necessarily mean he is not trained further.

[jj1987]

The buddy skills were an issue among everyone but that I guess was due to lack of consistency is diving together.

No, you're just likely seeing the result of crappy training.

I'm unaware of any intro agency that allows 1/3rds except 1/3rd of a single cylinder. If someone claims that, I would ask to see their agency's standards. These artificial penetration limits are set to allow intro divers to gain experience at that level and then move on to upper levels. Outside of GUE Cave 1 and NAUI cave 1, most all agencies have very similar intro standards. The differences you're asking about are likely misunderstandings that should have been pointed out in class.

Your question seems to ask if someone's trained to dive 1/3rds of double tanks, or go beyond 1000ft, is it OK to do so? Well, here's the "training" you need for that. Turn when you've used 2x your 1/6ths, and when you see the 1000ft arrow just keep swimming. Now that everyone has read my post on how to do this, and is "trained", do YOU think it's a good idea?

Out of curiosity, who were the instructors?

[Kelly Jessop]

QUESTION:
1)Have you noticed a difference in intro training from diver to diver???

2)Also what is your stand on """(using an intro certified diver as an example)""" an intro diver preforming skills that he has been trained for that may exceed the typical "Intro level training" but not yet finished full cave???

.

I have noticed over a number of years where intro was a fixed limit,it has been progressively added to over time by different agencies,and now there is a middle between intro and full that is referred to as "2".

I don't have comment either way where this is good or bad,but cave diving accidents that don't involve medical issues,intro level has had a high percent of accidents,and this should be a concern for the sport.

[LakeCityDiver]

I'm unaware of any intro agency that allows 1/3rds except 1/3rd of a single cylinder. If someone claims that, I would ask to see their agency's standards. These artificial penetration limits are set to allow intro divers to gain experience at that level and then move on to upper levels.

I am trained with TDI and on my card it even states "reserve 2/3 air supply to exit". I was trained to dive 1/3. Through my cavern and Intro it has always been 1/3. Its part of my training and what I was trained to do. You guys are fixated on this it has to be this way... Is training really whats important or is just the card? Is really that white plastic card with "full cave" on it really make me qualified to do certain skills or is it the TRAINING???

SM is single tank diving, 2 complete independent single tank air sources. Manifolded doubles i totally get 1/6.

[LakeCityDiver]

Out of curiosity, who were the instructors?

Cant remember. These dives were in mid 2012. 2 guys were met on here other 3 were at dive outpost staying with the guys i met on here and all just kind of just planed dives.

[Nitrogenius]

While I have read a lot of differences in rules for Intro Level.


In regards to 1/3rds however I agree I never have heard about allowing thatat intro Level other than with SINGLE tanks..
When someone was trained on single tanks though and then migrated to SM at some Point such individual might be under the Impression that this Person might be certfied for thirds!


The rule of thirds on single tanks Intro never made a lot of sense to me though.. Since there was no rule on tank size.. so someone could take a 150 cft or other large tank and penetrate as far (and undoubtly less safe) as someone on twin 70s ..

[Nitrogenius]

two single tanks in SM make a Twinset !! The 1/6th Limitation at doubles has nothing to do with the manifold..
It was simply introduced tp give instructors the possibility to Train students on doubles already at Intro and cavern Level. In order to Keep the same Overall risk profile with twins the Training was capped at siths instead of thirds (same amount of gas)..
This is how it had been explained to me by my instructors..
As however there is no Limit in single tank sizes this rule was somewhat hypocratic..


Nevertheless I bet that in your course Training you in diving thirds you have never been trained in the use of 2 Independent tanks in such dive, right ?

[LakeCityDiver]

Nevertheless I bet that in your course Training you in diving thirds you have never been trained in the use of 2 Independent tanks in such dive, right ?

Wrong!!! I was trained in sidemount. In the use of 2 independent tanks. Manifolded doubles is really just 1 big tank unless you isolate them. I have never use back mount doubles. I have always dove either single BM or Sidemount. Every and all skills (OOA, lost buddy, air share, light failure, lost mask,gas matching ect. ect.) all were done in the use of 2 independent SM tanks.

[Nitrogenius]

Wrong!!! I was trained in sidemount. In the use of 2 independent tanks.

Interesting. Seems a bit that your instructor might have interpreted the Standards a bit liberal, since the whole sidemount Training at the Level of cavern, intro and lastly also full cave is quite new and not incorporated in all Standards I assume.


It certaintly would be helpful if TDI instructors would shed a bit of light in regards to Standards..

[Rich]

NSS-CDS, NACD and TDI standards all state that Intro/Basic cave divers should use only a 1/6 of their gas, be it doubles or sidemount. That's how I've always trained people and it's the way it should be. If people wish to dive 1/3's, I encourage them to take a NAUI Cave 1 course instead....
If you were trained to dive 1/3's at the Intro/Basic level your instructor was breaking standards, end of story! Hope this helps...

Safe diving,

Rich

P.S. NACD and CDS both issue Intro/Basic Cave cards to dive a sixth of two cylinders, that expire after a certain amount of time then you have to renew your card or move on to Full Cave. TDI's Intro card allows you to dive a sixth of two cylinders and does not expire...