Thanks for clearing things up and ensuring that we all understand that the IUCRR is not an organization for cave diving related recoveries and reporting. It is purely an organization of cave divers who recover bodies for law enforcement. There is no planned mission to support the cave diving community other than to do the recoveries as requested.Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Thanks, and have a Happy New Year!
Joe
Well I got that lol, been there, I was thinking of stickers to slap on my truck or something where my non cave relatives might have it. We should all know at least of the IUCRR, and it's fairly evident we know how to use the internet, so I'm not worried about us
The information shared on this thread whether intentionally or not so much has cleared the fog a bit for me personally.
For years I suspected that the legal liability issues that strangled much of what we call public information had virtually capped accident reports.
If you are patient you learn details via trusted individuals who are involved or if not you don't.
I appreciate the work the IUCRR does and I appreciate the recoveries that have taken place.
As with all agencies or groups there is a constant need for evolution and sometimes WE need to be active, supportive, patient to allow these changes to occur.
I would love to see reports again but also understand the legal strings that can strangle even the simplest of reports.
An acquaintance of mine did a recovery and commented on a public forum.
With in a matter of hours he was in a legal nightmare.
He survived but I do not know if he would do or follow the same coarse again.
These concerns are real and I appreciate the recovery that was done by these three divers.
This thread has shared much hopefully some positive change can come from it.
JCG
My Suggestion if it matters, For the information and Education of the instructor base the Agency that Certified the diver in their highest level of Cave diving should file a FOIA request to the appropriate LEO agency and Medical Examiner. Once the information is public record the Government has no choice but to release the information unless interested parties petition the court to keep the record sealed. ah la New Town, CT. While this may have no hope in Mexico, Bahamas or most of the Europe caves, I am fairly confident this information will be available in Florida. Case in Point has anyone requested the Simmons report? The IUCRR report while be part of this public record. The Certifying agency do have a vested interest in what went wrong and should communicate this to the instructor base. Will they publish the report on a public Blog I doubt it.
Last I checked it was on the IUCCR site. I'd be surprised if they had taken it down.
-Jon
It is -- February 14, 2007
Wow has it been that long?
Yup...
As a former law enforcement officer, and a current legal assistant working for lawyers that sue people in state and federal courts, I can back up some of what Ken has been saying. It all boils down to PRUDENCE, which, I assume is a concept some of you are familiar with.
Law Enforcement investigations are mostly confidential (you can usually request a copy of the front page of an incident/offense report without a FOIA request) and typically remain so until the case is closed. Some elements may become public at preliminary hearings, but this would only happen in the event of an arrest. Cases are closed for a variety of reasons, but can also remain open indefinitely.
Civil cases typically have a 2-year window in which they can be filed. This can be extended in certain circumstances for as long as seven additional years.
By focusing on the recoveries, the IUCCR limits it's liability, and has the best chance of staying apolitical. Anyone can draft a FOIA request. A much smaller group is qualified to pull dead people out of water-filled caves.
Essentially, you guys expect the IUCCR to make legal decisions on what evidence is and is not subject to disclosure. A mistake made in such a matter could have civil and criminal liability. You're basically asking these guys to gamble their homes and freedom so that you can know what a bottom mix was.
I would like to have this information as well, but honestly, it seems like a bunch of lazy !@#$% want the IUCCR to spend their time filing FOIA requests, and their money paying copy costs because they are too lazy or stupid to do it themselves. It's a simple form. Get off your @$$es and do your own work if it's so damn important to know what was in someone's tank.
Benderr,
There are some people that most likely only desire to stir the pot and have their drama, however I don't believe that is the case with most, and I know it is not with me. I am an IUCRR recovery diver and what I would like most is to see the IUCRR continue to be credible and relevant. The way they have handled a number of different things over the last few years I have my doubts and concerns. The director, Ken Hill, of the IUCRR has stated that no incidents will be posted due to legal concerns. His primary reasoning is HIPPA which does not apply to anyone except medical personnel after the victim is deceased. Both of you have clearly stated that after the case is closed a FOI request can be made which will contain the pertinent information that the IUCRR normally posts on their website. Continued incident analysis is part of the IUCRR charter and IMHO having current incidents posted is one way of doing that.
If litigation is so much of a concern and HIPPA does apply then why is the recent incident in the Devils system now posted on the IUCRR website? Consistency and transparency is what we need from the IUCRR board. Ken has also stated that the IUCRR could file an FOI request for the incidents that the IUCRR is involved in however that the IUCRR is not willing to make that effort. Seems to me that the organization that is involved in the recovery is in the best position to make the request in order to inform the cave diving and non cave diving public of incidents with public information to further incident analysis and awareness of what causes cave diving incidents.
As a recovery diver I don't read incident threads until after a recovery has been completed. The reason is that there is a slight possibility I might be called out, as happened with the Vortex incident, and I don't want to have anything affect how I approach a recovery. After the recovery is complete, for me, generally there is plenty of information on boards to get a fairly good idea of what happened and move on. However I feel that the IUCRR website helps newer cave divers an non divers much more with a list of incidents that help make the risks the reality that they are and reinforces the importance of training and experience for everyone. When the incidents are out of date by many years then that impact and educational tool is greatly diminished.
The other down side and to me this is the biggest is that if the IUCRR is not consistent, credible, and current then it becomes irrelevant. If that happens people will not use it when an incident occurs. This is something that we have already seen with a number of incidents. Recoveries were made without involving the IUCRR, they were handled well, and accurate information was released regarding the incidents. Unfortunately that information did not get to the one place that has become the central source for straight facts regarding cave diving incidents which is the IUCRR website. This is a loss in my opinion. My next concern is that the LEO agencies will also loose their confidence in the IUCRR as a credible agency and resource. If/when that happens we get to step back 20 years with unqualified PSD's attempting cave recoveries and untrained cave divers doing the same. Again both of these things have already happened recently.
For me it is about not only keeping the IUCRR relevant it is also the desire to move it forward and seeing some much needed improvement to keep it current.
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