Bad dive at Ginnie

[TONY CHANEY]

Alright some Acid Base Balance !!!!!!

I'll get to that if I get a reply or two.

[rongoodman]

I'll get to that if I get a reply or two.

I remember when the Golden Rules were a big part of the ACLS course, gone now these many years.

[Randy Thornton]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that CO2 exacerbates narcosis. "Back in the old days" when we used to teach a lot of Extended Range classes (deep air, precursor to Trimix class) we used to take students to Forty Fathom Grotto. We would take them down to 180' on air and have them swim around, perform a few skills etc. Usually, they were fairly coherent and could perform most non-taxing skills with reasonably good results. After a few mins. at depth, we would then ask them to do a horizontal "non-responsive diver tow" for about 20-30 feet at depth. It was amazing to watch. Almost universally, each and every student would get absolutely instantly narked out of their gourd, with just that little bit of extra workload. No doubt in my mind that it was the CO2 which caused the increased narcosis. Once they stopped, caught their breath and rested, the narcosis would eventually subside somewhat, but not completely. In some cases, it would not subside completely until they were out of the water. It was about this point in the course, when most of the students decided that they were quite interested in pursuing Trimix training so that they could start using helium in their mixes. Fortunately, at some point in the mid 90s, TDI mandated that these types of skills could no longer be tested at any depth deeper than 100 feet. I'm sure this has created a much safer environment for students as well as instructors!

My recommendation is that if you are in the cave and experiencing narcosis like symptoms and can not immediately ascend to shallower depths, is to slow down, rest a min. or two, catch your breath and don't push it so hard. Additionally, as has been eluded to previously, make sure you have high quality, well tuned regs that are suited for purpose. A poorly tuned or inappropriate reg can increase CO2 buildup and bring on the narcosis earlier. Another thing to check is that your wetsuit or drysuit is not too tight and restricting your ability to get full breaths. The fact that you were solo diving, in a cave at your experience level (or lack of experience) can also increase your perceived task loading which makes narcosis seem that much more unmanageable. It sounds like you have already decided to put a halt to the solo cave diving for the time being, which is a wise decision IMHO. But more than anything, don't try to push yourself too fast in the cave if it is making your feel unwell.

Narcosis is rarely a fun experience for anyone and the symptoms sound very similar to what you have been describing.

Warm regards,
Randy

[Andreas]

Just a question: for those that say that they are a CO2 retainer what was your CO2 and HCO3 from your ABG (aterial blood gas)?

Unfortunately I don't remember any of the numbers from any of the tests they had me do. We did tests in and out of water for two days (at a military air base), breathing normal air and a mixture containing 6% CO2. It was over a decade ago and I only received a printout of a graph from one of the breathing gas tests, but I don't have that with me anymore.

[TONY CHANEY]

Unfortunately I don't remember any of the numbers from any of the tests they had me do. We did tests in and out of water for two days (at a military air base), breathing normal air and a mixture containing 6% CO2. It was over a decade ago and I only received a printout of a graph from one of the breathing gas tests, but I don't have that with me anymore.

I am in no way, shape or form being an a%^ but how do your know that you are CO2 retainer as you stated before?

[Andreas]

I am in no way, shape or form being an a%^ but how do your know that you are CO2 retainer as you stated before?

Because during 20 years of diving I have had countless CO2 hits, and the mentioned tests confirmed that I am more tolerant to CO2 than what is considered "normal".

[MORGAN]

I remember when the Golden Rules were a big part of the ACLS course, gone now these many years.

Yup, I taught ACLS for many years. Now we have the "kinder, gentler" ACLS.

[jcr]

CARBON DIOXIDE, NARCOSIS, AND DIVING
BY JOHNNY E. BRIAN JR., M.D.

http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers...sis-and-diving

[TONY CHANEY]

Because during 20 years of diving I have had countless CO2 hits, and the mentioned tests confirmed that I am more tolerant to CO2 than what is considered "normal".

Where the "countless CO2 hits" diagnosis by self, ER or Md's office? Are you a subject to easy CO2 build up or a chronic CO2 retainer?

[TONY CHANEY]

CARBON DIOXIDE, NARCOSIS, AND DIVING
BY JOHNNY E. BRIAN JR., M.D.

http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers...sis-and-diving

Good article but it more or less pertains to the density of gases and how the greater density of the gas can cause increased build up of CO2. The article was not much help in this situation. The diver was using 32% and at a max depth of 100' with an average depth of 80'. According to the article the gas used was only about 3.4 gram/liter more than air at 1 ata. Also, the article stated that, "Unfortunately, only testing under hyperbaric conditions was successful (13). The existence and prevalence of impaired CO2 response in cave and technical divers is not known". Still a good article none the less.