Bad dive at Ginnie

[Sludge]

I don't remember being narc'd...

Exactly.

[KMD]

While I don't mind answering the question, I don't want this to be a solo diving thread. As I said before, I felt comfortable at the time with my skill and experience to do minor solo diving.

The really wasn't a solo diving question so much as a 5 basic rules of cave diving. Less you forgot, let me summarize one of the rules:

1) Be trained for cave diving, remain within the limits of your training.

So you are at the apprentice cave level and have a total of 60 cave dives. What in your training you have had let you believe you had the training, skills and experience to conduct solo cave dives?

[hunabku]

Exactly.

I thought I had never been affected by narcosis until I did a dive at Ginnie with some helium left in my tanks.

[Andreas]

I believe it was a combination of external mental stress and anxiety as well as CO2 build up, I should have turned earlier in the Gallery but pushed it thinking it would get better.
When I found myself just following arrows into the cave I knew something was wrong but for some unexplainable reason kept going (I wanted to turn but didn't, no idea why)
until I reached the point where I just couldn't do it anymore.
This should have been an easy dive, and I've done longer and more complex dives before (I dove Hill 400 to 1100 feet with my instructor which went beautifully, Also dove
peacock to 1100 feet on 1/6th)

You are almost certainly correct about CO2 buildup. Mental stress and anxiety easily leads to CO2 buildup, and what you are describing is "textbook" CO2, if there were such a textbook. I am a CO2-retainer (Google it if you don't know the term) and have survived 20 years of diving, so I have a fair bit of experience with it. For your future dives, remember to ventilate your lungs efficiently and effectively by trying to breathe with your stomach instead of your chest, and focus on proper and deep exhalations. If you tend to take a pause in between breaths, try to make that pause after you exhale and not after you inhale. Also make exercise a priority so you don't produce as much CO2 for any given physical task.

Best of luck,
Andreas

[nkavallar]

The really wasn't a solo diving question so much as a 5 basic rules of cave diving. Less you forgot, let me summarize one of the rules:

1) Be trained for cave diving, remain within the limits of your training.

So you are at the apprentice cave level and have a total of 60 cave dives. What in your training you have had let you believe you had the training, skills and experience to conduct solo cave dives?

I hate to come across in a bad way here, but here it goes. As far as formal training goes to my knowledge there isn't a big different between apprentice and full besides the navigation part and more deco (More jumps, traverses, circuits, etc). I limited my solo dives to short dives, with full cave you can do longer dives. So at the time I figured I can do solo dives within 1/6th rule. To handle certain emergencies, I don't think there is anything in full that hasn't been discussed in apprentice. Also at this point I might be better off then some diver how do cavern and intro together in 4 days, and a few weeks later apprentice and full together in 4 days. So with that you can be full have and barley have 20 cave dives. I am not saying that I was ready, but that was my logic with it.

You are almost certainly correct about CO2 buildup. Mental stress and anxiety easily leads to CO2 buildup, and what you are describing is "textbook" CO2, if there were such a textbook. I am a CO2-retainer (Google it if you don't know the term) and have survived 20 years of diving, so I have a fair bit of experience with it. For your future dives, remember to ventilate your lungs efficiently and effectively by trying to breathe with your stomach instead of your chest, and focus on proper and deep exhalations. If you tend to take a pause in between breaths, try to make that pause after you exhale and not after you inhale. Also make exercise a priority so you don't produce as much CO2 for any given physical task.

Thanks Andreas, I'll pay more attention on the correct breathing. That helps.

[SlowDiver]

- I did not have a buddy bottle (stage) with me on that dive


Thanks everyone for the advice, and I will stop doing solo dives until I get more training and more dives.

I'm not here to bad mouth you for wanting to solo dive. For me it's sometimes the best way to dive and enjoy the cave, plus they can't go back and talk to my instructor because he has been deceased about 15 years. But if you are going to solo dive in the future, and I hope you do, please carry a buddy bottle, spare mask, and a small light turned on as well as your primary. I had a ballast go on a HID light while back in Jackson Blue and having a small pin light mounted to my mask was a comforting feeling while I retrieved a backup light. Also had a mask lens shatter when hit with a falling rock. Be careful, learn from others and enjoy the caves.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[cerich]

I hate to come across in a bad way here, but here it goes. As far as formal training goes to my knowledge there isn't a big different between apprentice and full besides the navigation part and more deco (More jumps, traverses, circuits, etc). I limited my solo dives to short dives, with full cave you can do longer dives. So at the time I figured I can do solo dives within 1/6th rule. To handle certain emergencies, I don't think there is anything in full that hasn't been discussed in apprentice. Also at this point I might be better off then some diver how do cavern and intro together in 4 days, and a few weeks later apprentice and full together in 4 days. So with that you can be full have and barley have 20 cave dives. I am not saying that I was ready, but that was my logic with it.

I hate to come across in a bad way here, but here it goes. As far as formal training goes to my knowledge there isn't a big different between a private pilot and commercial besides the navigation part and more time flying (More take offs, landings, cross country, etc). I limited my 737 flights to short flights, with commercial pilot you can do longer flights. So at the time I figured I can do short flights on the 737 within VFR rule. To handle certain emergencies, I don't think there is anything in commercial that hasn't been discussed in private pilot. Also at this point I might be better off then some pilots how do private and instrument together in 4 weeks, and a few weeks later commercial and atp together in 4 months. So with that you can be commercial have and barley (soup?) have 20 instrument flights. I am not saying that I was ready, but that was my logic with it.

It's always easier to give other people advice than take your own, so I switched the circumstances around with your own post. May help put some perspective on it.

[nkavallar]

I hate to come across in a bad way here, but here it goes. As far as formal training goes to my knowledge there isn't a big different between a private pilot and commercial besides the navigation part and more time flying (More take offs, landings, cross country, etc). I limited my 737 flights to short flights, with commercial pilot you can do longer flights. So at the time I figured I can do short flights on the 737 within VFR rule. To handle certain emergencies, I don't think there is anything in commercial that hasn't been discussed in private pilot. Also at this point I might be better off then some pilots how do private and instrument together in 4 weeks, and a few weeks later commercial and atp together in 4 months. So with that you can be commercial have and barley (soup?) have 20 instrument flights. I am not saying that I was ready, but that was my logic with it.

It's always easier to give other people advice than take your own, so I switched the circumstances around with your own post. May help put some perspective on it.

Thanks Chris, it makes sense what you're saying. I guess the point I was trying to make is that just because I could have combined my apprentice with full over a long weekend, would not have made me off any better. I was disagreeing that the training part would have made the difference, I think that experience is what you need the most - Lots of dives with good buddies. Once I get my learners permit (full cave card) it doesn't qualify me to solo dive either. As I said before, there won't be any more solo dives for me until I feel like my experience matches my plans. I'm not trying to justify what I did, quite the opposite - I just disagree that a full cave card would have helped. Also, I love advice from more experience people, the first thing I did after the dive is send my write up to my instructor to let him know and to get his feedback (Which I 100% trust and respect).

I'm not here to bad mouth you for wanting to solo dive. For me it's sometimes the best way to dive and enjoy the cave, plus they can't go back and talk to my instructor because he has been deceased about 15 years. But if you are going to solo dive in the future, and I hope you do, please carry a buddy bottle, spare mask, and a small light turned on as well as your primary. I had a ballast go on a HID light while back in Jackson Blue and having a small pin light mounted to my mask was a comforting feeling while I retrieved a backup light. Also had a mask lens shatter when hit with a falling rock. Be careful, learn from others and enjoy the caves.

Thanks for your input, I do carry a spare mask, and a bunch of lights. I will take a stage with me once I'm ready for solo diving.

[LCF]

Man, that sounds like a horrible time.

I think a lot of us underestimate the narcosis at 90+ feet on 32%. You don't have to feel drunk to be narced. I made mistakes in my C2 class that were absolutely atypical of me, one of which could have killed my entire team, if we hadn't been in a class situation. I then went on to make the same kind of mistake (situational awareness fail) in Mexico at 95 feet, and I will not go that deep in a cave without helium any more.

If you add the CO2 buildup of working hard in Ginnie, your thinking can really go to pot. Your description of the "tunnel vision" matches my memories of my mainline swims in class, following two much bigger guys who were swimming faster than I could manage.

At any rate, what I have learned is that, when I am narced, I have a "Huh?" response to new information in the cave. I am desperately hoping that the next time that happens to me, I will recognize it as the danger sign it is, and turn the dive right there. Perhaps you can memorize the feeling of the cave not welcoming you, and remember that it's a sign you shouldn't be there.

[navycaver]

I'm not here to bad mouth you for wanting to solo dive. For me it's sometimes the best way to dive and enjoy the cave, plus they can't go back and talk to my instructor because he has been deceased about 15 years. But if you are going to solo dive in the future, and I hope you do, please carry a buddy bottle, spare mask, and a small light turned on as well as your primary. I had a ballast go on a HID light while back in Jackson Blue and having a small pin light mounted to my mask was a comforting feeling while I retrieved a backup light. Also had a mask lens shatter when hit with a falling rock. Be careful, learn from others and enjoy the caves.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well put and I would say from my point of view some good advice.

BTW My instructor is still around thank goodness.