Ginnie Artwork- Do you know Will?

[rddvet]

I find it hard to believe that anyone that did this is cave certified

I tend to agree. Maybe he'll go to vortex soon and the whole saga will "self-resolve".



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[jj1987]

That was my point, earlier. It seems like something someone without any cave training (and, thus, no respect for caves) would do. I knew, even well before my cave training began, to respect such environments. It's why I suspected an OW diver and was asking about other marks or scars (which I do see on the video). While it might seem difficult for an OW diver to make it all the way to that part of Ginnie and back, perhaps they had a scooter (which they might have trained on in OW). It's why I was asking about "drag marks" or other damage.

This reminds me of these standardized tests questions

Cave Divers are to cave damage what CCR divers are to ___________ deaths.

(Answer: Medical)

I don't think anyone outside the cave community will believe that even though OW deaths in caves have gone to near zero (while cave trained deaths have risen), that all this damage is being done by untrained OW divers who magically aren't dying in caves any more. Wouldn't you admit that's a REALLY odd coincidence, especially at places that don't allow OW divers to have lights?

[PfcAJ]

Come on guys. Are ya'll REALLY trying to suggest that an OW did that? You're joking...right?

[jeandiver]

Isn't that spot in the Big Room more than 1/2 way around the circuit?
(but I am just guessing here)
That can be a long circuit etc.
Just my two cents.

I.E. Could an OW diver even get that far?
Just sayin...

Thanks!
Jeano

[mag3]

I don't think anyone outside the cave community will believe that even though OW deaths in caves have gone to near zero (while cave trained deaths have risen), that all this damage is being done by untrained OW divers who magically aren't dying in caves any more. Wouldn't you admit that's a REALLY odd coincidence, especially at places that don't allow OW divers to have lights?

I would argue that anyone that's of a mindset to disrespect a cave to that extent would have no problem at all disrespecting the rules in regard to lights, as well.

I'm not saying for sure that it is an OW diver (or that it's not a cave trained diver)... like everyone else, I have no idea who could have done it. But I can only wonder why a diver with any amount/level of cave training, and who worked as hard and invested as much time/$$$ into their training as I have, would risk it all to do something so FAS as this. Furthermore, I wonder what cave instructor (or any SCUBA instructor) would risk their reputation to certify such a person.

Of course, it could have been someone with no formal SCUBA training at all. But like the OP, I'd have difficulty believing anyone could get that far into/out of Ginnie without some kind of training/experience in (at least) buoyancy control, if nothing else. Hence, my initial suspicion of an OW diver.

If it does turn out to be someone "cave certified," they should lose all their cave certs permanently... (Life without parole).

[MichaelAngelo]

From an art history point of view Graffiti has existed in all parts of Human Society since man first learned to scribe markings with a charcoal stick. The lowest form of graffiti has been the tag. The marking of your territory with the spelling or symbol of your name. It has been found in every part of all human society because it comes from our lowest base instincts. Most societies have frowned upon it but it still exists. Even modern "Graffiti Artists" disdain tagging as low life gangland mentality. My point being is to say this can't be done by a cave diver is not logical, cave divers have tagged in the past (Cow Springs). We as a community frown upon this behavior but we frown upon alot of things that still happen. Giving that it also doesn't in and of itself mean it wasn't an open water diver.

[skip]

lowest base instincts? I doubt that. circular logic here. it's bad by our current standards in the "cave community" (and may very well be bad in other communities too) therefore is a low baser instinct. and Instinct? nope. instinct is done by every member of a species without intent or will. actually, there are no instincts. reflexes yes, instincts no. At one time social scientists (in USA of course) had listed over 100 "baser human instincts" and the "need to wage war" was one of them. We've since given up on the term instinct as meaningless (scientifically, hasn't yet trickled down to the lay public). Turns out reflexive behavior defines all the stuff once consider candidates for "instincts."

Just because some behavior occurs among all or most groups of humans in history does not make it low, base, or instinct.

Personally, I don't even think it's bad. Some people do it, nearly everyone does it at one time or another, most "grow up" and see the immature nature of the behavior, some take a bit longer than others. For my money WILLM is not from the USA, not cave trained in the USA, on a cave diving trip to Florida, is male, young, and this particular dive was his pinnacle cave dive to date.

skip

[a64pilot]

Come on guys. Are ya'll REALLY trying to suggest that an OW did that? You're joking...right?

As an example, the Ben person who was diving Vortex wasn't cave trained was he? Un-certified cave divers are cave diving, how many I have no idea, but it's happening. If a person show up with the proper gear, they get in the water and dive.

[PfcAJ]

As an example, the Ben person who was diving Vortex wasn't cave trained was he? Un-certified cave divers are cave diving, how many I have no idea, but it's happening. If a person show up with the proper gear, they get in the water and dive.

And that didn't last long.

The simplest answer is often the correct answer. For an OW diver to make it ~1000' back into a high flow, 85ft deep cave, dodge ginnie security, make a nav decision or two, and make it back out, seems somewhat improbable when compared to a cave-certified ####### going back there and doing it. We've already seen cave certified divers intentionally damage clay in the past, and with more and more people getting certified, it stands to reason that the chance of an ####### slipping through and getting certified will approach 1.

[hunabku]

Just get a DNA sample from the condom cath they left on the picnic table. Case closed.