Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[cerich]

Yes we are all king size egos...it comes with what we do. However we don't have to be children... Carl, yup I can be a smartarse...that is why I choose question 3. Unless we all believe that option is truly what most people believe then its fair to say most of the people reading this also have some sense if humour. Except you (sorry couldn't resist pulling the string) That said we don't need to agree nor like with each other to respect each other. I've been teasing a little on a couple posts. For that I apologize as it obvious that tempers are high enough that my teasing is being taken in a negative way. I'll stop. Lets not start throwing real insults because we are all better than that.

[skip]

It might be best if the "accreditation" part was put into place before the removal of the "certification" training part. I don't see that the two cannot coexist at least for a time. Sure other agencies may see it as a gambit for NSS-CDS to get more students, but that won't be relevant in the long run. And if advertised properly, with instructors from other agencies on the review and accreditation committee, then it's not really a CDS committee, but some independent oversight committee. The cave alliance is already organized, more or less, and does not do training; maybe pitch the idea there.

The first step is to formulate a proposal statement in terms that could be made a motion at a meeting of the BoD. Once the wording of the statement is agreed upon by those writing it (and maybe posting here for comment, edits, suggestions, etc.), then it can be voted on. All this discussion is fine, but it's waning and it's time to move forward.

So here goes: "It is proposed that the NSS-CDS establish a committee with the charge of accrediting instructors of any and all agencies with an official NSS-CDS Seal of Approval. The committee will be composed of volunteer instructors with a minimum of 10 years of teaching experience, including a minimum of 6 students certified full cave or equivalent in the past year. The volunteer instructors may come from any agency. Twelve such instructors will form the committee, with the BoD vetting the volunteers for membership to the committee. The committee will develop: criteria to be used to rate instructors, a rating scale, methodology of review, process for requesting consideration for review, and any thing else the committee considers appropriate to fulfill its charge."

I see no reason to address the current practice of training and certifying. Let's see how this thing goes first.

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[skip]

How about two levels of accreditation? One strictly cave diving, and one with an NSS component: dry cave training/experience? The Named Instructor is Accredited at the Level of Master Cave Diving Instructor by the NSS-CDS Board of Examiners. The Named Instructor is Accredited at the Level of Grand Master Cave Diving Instructor.

And for those that include not just cave diving and dry caving, but sump diving too: Gold Grand Master.

I've saved Platinum Grand Master Cave Diving Instructor for those who add to all the above: Exploration and Survey of Virgin Cave.

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[TracyN]

Ultimate Cave Diver you can do better then that, I wouldn't expect something so obvious to come from you, maybe its time for a name change like "Satisfactory Cave Diver" or "Average Cave Diver" with obvious comments like yours "Ultimate" seems like a stretch.........

OMG! LoL!!!!!!!! You guys are great!

[Jont]

LOL... what a dork.
Hurry up and come back to Florida. All that New York air is going to your head.

Working out my schedule for the next six months over the next 9 days, I'll be back soon!!!

[kwinter]

Only fitting that Jont would be the one coming to Cerich's defense. LOL... birds of a feather.

LOL... what a dork.
Hurry up and come back to Florida. All that New York air is going to your head.

And the very definition of a personal attack, violating the rules of the forum. You have nothing concrete to point to, so you just make a blanket statement about someone based on prior postings or history. I sure hope you guys are actually friends yanking each other's chains or else you are hopelessly irrational.

As for Chris' statements, I may not agree with what he says but his demeanor clearly shows that he cares about the organization. If someone doesn't care if it lives or dies, there is nothing to be said. Someone who makes suggestions and talks about avoiding its future irrelevancy seems to me to be someone to get involved. Its the apathetic ones that should be avoided.

Just sitting on the sidelines waiting for the battlefield to clear.

[rchrds]

Wow- this conversation, if that's what it is, has gone downhill. Maybe I'll venture my two cents. I became an NSS and a CDS member in 1995. (I have nothing on Forrest.) I served on the CDS board a few years later, and will not do it again, at least not while the CDS is involved in instruction. I let my CDS membership lapse soon after my board term, yet paid off my life membership to the NSS $50 dollars at a time as a college student in that same time period. Why? What is really different between the two organizations? Essentially, the NSS is a social organization. An organization that provides infrastructure for people who like to do things underground, to meet each other, share cave locations, and generally go caving. Over the years, the NSS has spent significant energy and effort to legitimize itself in the scientific realm by creating the Journal, supporting through grants and projects exploration efforts, and bolster trust with landowners. Arguably (and they do argue) the NSS has been reasonably successful in these efforts. In most cases, establishing your project as a Project of the NSS can assist in working with government organizations, provide legitimacy of your efforts to landowners, and even, in some cases get a little money for consumables. Obviously, there are schisms. It is unfortunate that politics could not be ironed out to include extremely active and successful caving groups like the Cave Research Foundation (CRF), who is responsible for the massive volume of work at Mammoth Cave, and the US Deep Cave Team (USDCT) and their work in the mountains around Cuevas Cheve and Huatla, in Mexico, under the NSS umbrella. But despite these schisms, the NSS remains a conservatory of a massive archive of cave information, as well as a nexus for other cave related organizations such as various state bat working groups in support of the WNS issue, the Southeastern Cave Conservancy, an extremely successful cave ownership organization, numerous state cave surveys, among others. The NSS does not provide training, per se; they support a loose ideal of cave conservation and cave training undertaken at various levels of competency through local grottos- if you want to learn to competently vertical cave in the European style, most would agree that the Texas grottos, with their access to very deep Mexican caves provide the best training, for Alpine caving, Alaskan and Colorado grottos lead the way. So why is the NSS so very different from the CDS? Aside from the NCRC, which is not technically a part of the NSS, the NSS does not, as a body, provide cave training for pay. Despite the fact that single rope vertical techniques, and all the associated skills are every bit as dangerous as cave diving, the NSS has decided, as an organization, that these skills are better taught through mentoring at the grotto level. This has kept the NSS from being driven by a need to provide livelihoods for certain members, and instead be driven by the various camps and ideologies that make up the science of speleology and the pursuit of recreation in caves. This has also allowed the NSS to remain, for the most part on a truly not for profit basis, uninfluenced by the financial needs and influences of the caving community. Obviously, the CDS has not followed suit with its parent organization. For years, and this may still be the case, the board of the CDS was not able to effect the standards and operations of its own instructors. The training director and the BOD operated in completely separate realms. This meant two things- the membership had no control (via elected officials) of the material and methodology presented by the instructors, and ultimately, no ability to remove or censure instructors deemed not to be meeting the needs and intents of the Cave Diving Section of the National Speleological Society. This had one effect- the CDS is viewed both internally and externally as two completely separate entities- The training director, and his mechanism for creating and managing instructors, and the BOD, which of late has done little aside from fend off lawsuits, hold poorly attended socials, and barely manage access to Cow before the whole cave gets kicked to pieces by people who weren't supposed to be there in the first place. By staying involved in Instruction the CDS has allowed making money through instructor fees and student memberships to overshadow the real purposes of the section as posted earlier. Don't get me wrong, educating people about caves is a job for the CDS, but paid instruction was not the answer envisioned by the founders of the CDS, nor should it be a founding principle now. The CDS and the NACD have served their purpose in this regard, they led the way in creating a foundation for the instruction of safe cave diving. Now, other organizations (though I am not one of theirs, I do like how their standards are presented by their instructors) GUE comes immediately to mind. The mold has been set, let the Other organizations run with the instruction piece, and let the CDS return to its mission of education through mentoring, just as its parent organization does. Though i agree with Cerich in that the CDS may be slipping into irrelevancy in the instruction front, I do not agree with his plan to develop some sort overarching approval committee of instructors. Cerich I do applaud your willingness to bring these issues to the front, these discussions need to be had. I would rather that the CDS align itself more closely with the NSS, provide a place and forum for all cave divers to voice opinions, meet en masse, have the discussions and conferences that people want to hear about, and hold training seminars where leaders in particular fields volunteer to talk about and train to some extent the specialties that people want to know in a mentoring environment, sponsored by the section. How much more emphasis would the CDS have if it could roll organizations like ASA, WKPP, ADM Foundation and others under its umbrella in the name of advancing the science of underwater caves without having to worry about the politics of individual instructor reputations tainting their work? The possibility for change exists. The framework for mentoring and more frequent events exists. How many people would attend weekend seminars taught by experienced volunteers in their fields? A deep cave exploration seminar by Brett Hemphill or Andy Pitkin? A survey seminar by Mike Poucher or myself? Rebreather specific seminars by professionals in those fields? Sidemount seminars by Edd Sorrensen? The NSS and the CDS are volunteer organizations. Once we liberate ourselves of the money emphasis, the volunteers will come forth, and the people who are really here as described by the purposes of the Cave Diving Section of the NAtional Speleological Society will come forth.

Jason Richards
Life Member NSS-CDS
41539

[Kelly Jessop]

How much more emphasis would the CDS have if it could roll organizations like ASA, WKPP, ADM Foundation and others under its umbrella in the name of advancing the science of underwater caves without having to worry about the politics of individual instructor reputations tainting their work?

Ironically the NSS is suffering from the same problem to some degree. You were part of the NSS' strategic planning committee,and left before the you saw the culmination of the work,and planning with the BOG. The NSS sees many splinter groups it too would like bring under its umbrella,and wants to be the premiere organization for caving,but can't. They don't have instructors,but suffer from quite a few of the same politics. The NSS does quite a few things right,but they get a lot wrong,and this is hurting their growth. You and I share a perpective of having sat on the CDS board,and some inside NSS function,but to some degree the NSS' problems are larger than the CDS. Kelly Jessop #40001FE

[rchrds]

Kelly, I agree- the NSS has issues of their own, most of which, I admit, I don't really have ready answers for, hence my reason for not participating in the politics there- I want to leave that for smarter folks. I'm not sure that all of the politics are similar, but certainly membership overall is a concern to both organization, and I didn't even want to get into the weird inter-dependency between the NSS and the CDS membership numbers. I present the NSS position above to provide some context to the CDS position, as many people are utterly unaware of how the NSS can be used by individuals for mutual benefit, nor how the CDS could benefit from some examples of how the NSS conducts its business.

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly, I agree- the NSS has issues of their own, most of which, I admit, I don't really have ready answers for, hence my reason for not participating in the politics there- I want to leave that for smarter folks. I'm not sure that all of the politics are similar, but certainly membership overall is a concern to both organization, and I didn't even want to get into the weird inter-dependency between the NSS and the CDS membership numbers. I present the NSS position above to provide some context to the CDS position, as many people are utterly unaware of how the NSS can be used by individuals for mutual benefit, nor how the CDS could benefit from some examples of how the NSS conducts its business.

Good point. Maybe you need to add BOG to your credentials