Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

[cerich]

So, for anyone who disagrees with your plan, they are not being proactive and wish to make the CDS become irrelevant? I find it quite disturbing that you take an adversarial approach to anyone who questions your plan or disagrees with it, rather than assuming a welcoming attitude and fostering good relations in a good faith attempt to get them on board. Something is very wrong here.

Generally people are smart Carl, they can read thru this thread and decide on their own where we all stand. I get that people are going to take it personal when I very publicly state that status quo is IMHO a stupid idea and they support status quo. It can be perceived as a personal attack.

I will grant that you have been pretty good on your attempt to control the narrative and twist my message, it's been tempting to play your game. The problem is that won't fix anything. Now some may think nothing is busted...that's OK. I have written quite a few posts here the last week on this, folks can go thru them and see EXACTLY what my position is.

Instead of you trying to restate my message in a way that you think will harm my arguments and paint me as somehow angry or " assuming a welcoming attitude and fostering good relations in a good faith attempt to get them on board" (glass house much?) can you honestly tell me why you think that the present course is a good one for the CDS and the cave diving community?

Something is wrong here, I'm looking for solutions, others are looking for a fight.

[CGriffing]

If you were looking for solutions, and did not want a discussion on these boards, then you would have taken up my offer and called me. You haven't, and I have not seen you offer the same. And if you mean twist your message by copying and pasting what you wrote, then you should be more careful as to what you post.

[cerich]

Of course I want a discussion on the boards, that is why I have been posting here. You and i can chat for hours and I bet we'll agree with many things...but what would it accomplish? Frankly there's been enough one on one calls between people on this, we need to have a community discussion. Only reason we haven't is many people are afraid to lose friendships, make it harder to get on the dives the want to do, training etc Many instructors don't wanna look bad in front of prospective students so they remain silent as well. It's easier for that type of environment to sustain when things aren't being said publicly. I'm not very good at that, I like throwing it all out there. I will be happy to talk with you anytime, but not to just take this conversation "off record".

best,

Chris

If you were looking for solutions, and did not want a discussion on these boards, then you would have taken up my offer and called me. You haven't, and I have not seen you offer the same. And if you mean twist your message by copying and pasting what you wrote, then you should be more careful as to what you post.

[kotik]

Chris, I enjoy your products and you seem like a nice person in person. I think though, that until there is something more substantial to say on the idea of accreditation through the CDS, that you might consider proposing some alternative ideas, and see if the discussion might evolve better in a different direction. I understand that the idea of the CDS assuming an accreditation role seems like a good idea to you, and that you believe that ending certification through the CDS would allow the possibility of various good things that are impossible otherwise. However, it has been pointed out more than once that the idea is only a speculative concept.

There are no details for how this system of accreditation would be defined. I for one believe that to build a real working system would be a major undertaking. And once the system is defined, administering the accreditation needs of an entire industry then becomes a major effort. Most likely the resources required to do so would be way more than those required for the CDS to administer its own training arm, which you claim to be a distraction. Even if the practical details of a system could be worked out with a plan to build up the required infrastructure within the CDS to service the worldwide industry, many here, including myself, are skeptical whether an instructor’s accreditation status would make any noticeable difference in his class enrollment. Bottom line though, there is no actual plan on the table, beyond the CDS leaving the certification business.

For the sake of contributing an alternative proposal-- one thing I tend to think might have a better chance of success at what you're looking for would be to attempt to rally the various agencies together, and make accreditation a group project, with shared ownership. It seems to be the case that transparency in standards for instructors is lacking—possibly a set of standards could be written and agreed on, and made publicly available, to stand as a minimum set of requirements for agencies to comply with. Something that sets a reasonable lower bar for QC of active instructors, that closes loopholes as much as possible, that each agency can play a part in administering, and can certify to without revealing their specific standards publicly. Something they could say that they at least meet the standards, if not exceed them, as well as particular instructors.

Also—why does the discussion have to be so fixated on cave training? Of the various agencies that are allegedly producing poor certified divers, only a couple are cave-centric, and they produce a small number of the population. Wouldn’t this suggest that poor cave training is only a small part of the bigger problem? I think the issue might really be that the quality of technical training in general is dipping. Maybe that’s the elephant, and we’re too focused on cleaning a tusk.

Thoughts?

[cerich]

Thanks, this has nothing to do with selling products but I appreciate the comments , we try.

I've laid out earlier what I felt would be a workable solution to the accreditation process. You start with getting the best in the business together in a training committee, they discuss the various standards and make best recommendations. from that you develop what becomes the required knowledge, skills and process for accreditation and how the accreditations administered. I have many ideas i would like to see implemented but honestly I really see that as something no one person is gonna see the whole picture.

It's REALLY important to note and something that somehow keeps being repeated incorrectly, the accreditation is NOT designed to get the agencies to fall in line. It's a VOLUNTARY process that cave instructors would submit to for personal accreditation regardless of the training agency affiliation(s).It would also be something they have to maintain thru a re-qualification process every so often on a set time frame as established by the training committee.

I see the CDS taking a more international leadership role in cave diving, filling a gap that exists for a cave centric versus dive centric organization. The appeal to join and participate would increase when the CDS is not just one of many sub-tribes in cave diving but the "home" for cave divers of all agencies.

To why does this have to be fixated on cave training? I'm not...at all. I'm fixated on having a global cave diving association that is committed to the mission of the NSS. Not one that many think is simply a dive Training Agency. I also happen to believe if we can accomplish that we can have MUCH more impact on the quality of cave divers thru a non partisan approach. If the "we are elite and have the best skills" was enough and all people wanted we'd all be doing our training with only one agency. We've seen that play out time and time again. It silly and it just hurts the community.

I don't disagree with you at all in regards to technical training. However the CDS is not a dive training organization and what people do outside of caves is really not that germane to this.

Chris, I enjoy your products and you seem like a nice person in person. I think though, that until there is something more substantial to say on the idea of accreditation through the CDS, that you might consider proposing some alternative ideas, and see if the discussion might evolve better in a different direction. I understand that the idea of the CDS assuming an accreditation role seems like a good idea to you, and that you believe that ending certification through the CDS would allow the possibility of various good things that are impossible otherwise. However, it has been pointed out more than once that the idea is only a speculative concept.

There are no details for how this system of accreditation would be defined. I for one believe that to build a real working system would be a major undertaking. And once the system is defined, administering the accreditation needs of an entire industry then becomes a major effort. Most likely the resources required to do so would be way more than those required for the CDS to administer its own training arm, which you claim to be a distraction. Even if the practical details of a system could be worked out with a plan to build up the required infrastructure within the CDS to service the worldwide industry, many here, including myself, are skeptical whether an instructor’s accreditation status would make any noticeable difference in his class enrollment. Bottom line though, there is no actual plan on the table, beyond the CDS leaving the certification business.

For the sake of contributing an alternative proposal-- one thing I tend to think might have a better chance of success at what you're looking for would be to attempt to rally the various agencies together, and make accreditation a group project, with shared ownership. It seems to be the case that transparency in standards for instructors is lacking—possibly a set of standards could be written and agreed on, and made publicly available, to stand as a minimum set of requirements for agencies to comply with. Something that sets a reasonable lower bar for QC of active instructors, that closes loopholes as much as possible, that each agency can play a part in administering, and can certify to without revealing their specific standards publicly. Something they could say that they at least meet the standards, if not exceed them, as well as particular instructors.

Also—why does the discussion have to be so fixated on cave training? Of the various agencies that are allegedly producing poor certified divers, only a couple are cave-centric, and they produce a small number of the population. Wouldn’t this suggest that poor cave training is only a small part of the bigger problem? I think the issue might really be that the quality of technical training in general is dipping. Maybe that’s the elephant, and we’re too focused on cleaning a tusk.

Thoughts?

[Superlyte27]

Hmmm, I'm surprised. I would have thought you wanted to see the CDS remain a viable training agency and association. This poll if you disregard the third choice shows that 1/3 of people feel that the CDS needs to move on, 2/3 think it shouold stay in the training business. That's quite sad as the other poll asking what agency certified shows that the CDS is well behind the curve with 40 years of existence compared to TDI only being active in cave for maybe 5-6 years.....

IMHO you're taking delight in watching the CDS become irrelevant and not be proactive to survive.

Actually, I took it to mean that the TDI has more lenient instructors willing to push through students who probably wouldn't have gotten a card with a real cave diving agency. Hmm, interesting perspective you have I guess.

[Superlyte27]

That's false logic. You assume that this idea you have is the actual solution to the perceived problem, and that if people are not in favor of your idea, then they don't want the problem to be solved. I can accept that there may be a problem, and if so I'd very much be in favor of it being solved, but I haven't heard anything so far to convince me that your idea has merit as the solution.

If I understand correctly, the current curve, the trend, in training, is that the quality is deteriorating. Is that the curve that the CDS wants to be ahead of? Maybe the CDS certifies fewer divers, because quality control of the instructorship is more stringent than other agencies, so therefore there are fewer instructors able to certify divers?

If nothing else, if so many new divers being certified are bad divers, at least the lower CDS numbers means that fewer bad divers are coming out of the CDS than from other agencies.

Yup what he said. Exactly what my thoughts were.

[Superlyte27]

So, for anyone who disagrees with your plan, they are not being proactive and wish to make the CDS become irrelevant? I find it quite disturbing that you take an adversarial approach to anyone who questions your plan or disagrees with it, rather than assuming a welcoming attitude and fostering good relations in a good faith attempt to get them on board. Something is very wrong here.

See my post where I said this type of approach is what keeps people from being active. Who on earth would want to take part or speak up for something when the cerich's of the world might be ready to pounce.

Look his goals might truly be benevolent and peaceful, but if he's coming off like a horses rear end (and he is) then his goals are not being met. Whether he's trying to or not, he's chasing people.

[Superlyte27]

can you honestly tell me why you think that the present course is a good one for the CDS and the cave diving community?

Something is wrong here, I'm looking for solutions, others are looking for a fight.

You mean the present course of letting the new management do their thing with new ideas, possibly new direction, renewed focus, renewed strength and renewed passion? Or, you'd really like to turn everything upside down and HOPE that the CDS survives. Dude, the risk is too big. Let the system work. There's tons of new people in place, with great ideas and great ambition.

[cerich]

Actually, I took it to mean that the TDI has more lenient instructors willing to push through students who probably wouldn't have gotten a card with a real cave diving agency. Hmm, interesting perspective you have I guess.

OK, let's say you are right...what does that mean long term for the CDS? Chess or Checkers?