I stumbled across this on YouTube...

[speleodiver]

Kelly, can you please elaborate on this? Is this because they didn't sign in with Cathy? Or because they're breaking the established rules? What constitutes trespassing?

Just trying to understand if this also applies to things like ginnie springs when divers sign waivers and then break the rules. Or peacock. Etc.

They could not have checked in with Cathy. Cow is owned by the members of the NSSCDS and available only to members. Being open water divers they would not have been given a key. Which means they trespassed to gain entry!

As for Ginnie. Ask yourself this. If your loved one was to go there, sign all paperwork and go drown themselves in the cave with open water gear on, would the thought of why didn't someone do something not cross your mind at some point? It's the same thing as not popping a round in a crazy murderer on a spree at the mall. The crazy person might want to think twice if I'm on scene!!

All this crap about not acting is insane. If a plane I Am on is ever hijacked, I will go out with some box cutter wounds because I damn sure won't sit there with my thumb up my butt and be afraid to defend inocent people. A plane full of people that can't overtake a few hijackers with a couple of box knives is sad. There are usually a lot more people at Ginnie then on a plane. I'm thankful to those who stand up. I have been called everything there is and have been close to a few physical altercations but in the end, they woke up and apoligized. I'm pretty certain they were thankful. I have never acted at Ginnie and the staff back me. Go ask for the paperwork I had to fill out!

[jcook]

All this crap about not acting is insane. If a plane I Am on is ever hijacked, I will go out with some box cutter wounds because I damn sure won't sit there with my thumb up my butt and be afraid to defend inocent people. A plane full of people that can't overtake a few hijackers with a couple of box knives is sad. There are usually a lot more people at Ginnie then on a plane. I'm thankful to those who stand up. I have been called everything there is and have been close to a few physical altercations but in the end, they woke up and apoligized. I'm pretty certain they were thankful. I have never acted at Ginnie and the staff back me. Go ask for the paperwork I had to fill out!

How is that even apples to apples dude? Not getting involved and letting some idiot die in a cave isn't even comparable to trying to overtake a hijacker that is threatening lives. Might want to use more applicable metaphors next time.

[jj1987]

They could not have checked in with Cathy. Cow is owned by the members of the NSSCDS and available only to members. Being open water divers they would not have been given a key. Which means they trespassed to gain entry!

As for Ginnie. Ask yourself this. If your loved one was to go there, sign all paperwork and go drown themselves in the cave with open water gear on, would the thought of why didn't someone do something not cross your mind at some point? It's the same thing as not popping a round in a crazy murderer on a spree at the mall. The crazy person might want to think twice if I'm on scene!!

All this crap about not acting is insane. If a plane I Am on is ever hijacked, I will go out with some box cutter wounds because I damn sure won't sit there with my thumb up my butt and be afraid to defend inocent people. A plane full of people that can't overtake a few hijackers with a couple of box knives is sad. There are usually a lot more people at Ginnie then on a plane. I'm thankful to those who stand up. I have been called everything there is and have been close to a few physical altercations but in the end, they woke up and apoligized. I'm pretty certain they were thankful. I have never acted at Ginnie and the staff back me. Go ask for the paperwork I had to fill out!

Between strip searching Granny, feeling up women and harassing kids, TSA has made air travel so safe this isn't even reasonable

[Sludge]

A plane full of people that can't overtake a few hijackers with a couple of box knives is sad.

In defense of the 9/11 victims, "hijacking," throughout history, has consisted of planes being taken to such places as Havana, or other locations that are generally off-limits. I'm pretty sure the passengers on the first three planes thought they were going to be taken somewhere, and it would all be just one big inconvenience. It was only after being told of the WTC incidents that the passengers on the fourth plane took action.

Just sayin'.

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree,and don't have any doubt that you would do everything in your power to try and do something. My comments are general in nature too,because sometimes cave divers that see someone breaking the rules act like like seeing an accident,"I don't want to get involved,somebody else will come along".

It's important for cave divers to understand that if they do not regulate themselves, the body count will become sufficiently high to attract the attention of government entities who will step in and regulate it. And for a small community like cave diving, the reality is that it's just far easier to ban it then it is to try to bother messing with it and spending tax dollars on it.

The hang gliding and ultralight aircraft industries are good examples of self regulation. The ultralight aircraft industry avoided any regulation for decades, and when the FAA did get involved it was to essentially give them a pass on most of the restrictive training and certification regulations and instead just define what fell into the category of ultralight aviation as a largely unregulated activity. That industry chose self regulation as they recognized that they would not fare well under the FAA's ire if accidents and incident numbers got out of hand or innocent citizens and bystanders got killed. And they also recognized that irresponsible actions or design would lead to liability and law suit issues that would effectively lead to regulation as well.

In that regard we need to recognize that each and every one of us are in fact the cave police. That may mean setting our egos or pride aside and admitting to or own limitations,turning a dive when your comfort or ability level is exceeded, it may mean having frank discussions with other cave divers about their own potentially flawed assessment of their skills and abilities relative to dives they wish to attempt, and it most certainly means holding our ground when an OW diver thinks they rate being part of the "cave" community by virtue of trespassing on a protected sight and/or thinking their training, skills and equipment are up to the demands of cave diving.

[JamesK]

In that regard we need to recognize that each and every one of us are in fact the cave police.

Yep, new sticker for my helmet coming soon!

[speleodiver]

How is that even apples to apples dude? Not getting involved and letting some idiot die in a cave isn't even comparable to trying to overtake a hijacker that is threatening lives. Might want to use more applicable metaphors next time.

You would compare it to fruit!! The comparision is saving a life or not. To write it in laymens terms for you. The life of a single open water diver who makes unfavorable decisions is worth no less than the life of the person who decides not to act to sway the bad decision. The point is why do nothing and risk access we all worked for because you are afraid of assault charges? Pretty close to a single person defending the mass if you ask me. You might want to actually think a while before you answer next time.

PS. And do not send me private PM about getting my facts straight when you fail to read.

[Sludge]

That's it, you two. You don't like each other - we get it.

[speleodiver]

That's it, you two. You don't like each other - we get it.

Nah he is ok. Just needs a little mentoring like all the other young pups. I actually learn a few things from him as well. Either way I'd pull him out and save his life if it came down to it. I certainly wouldn't wish him to get stuck in a secret hidden cave and drown!!

[mdax]

I don't believe the options are do nothing or put your hands on someone.
I was merely interrupting the macho fest to point out that it is not acceptable to put your hands on someone and that posturing online is silly. There are many non testosterone filled ways of changing someones behavior; James meeting for example is probably going to work far better in changing these folks behavior. They clearly have the means to pursue cave training and buy the gear, here's hoping he manages to get through to them. They seem to enjoy the outdoors and would probably love to explore caves safely.

Cave owners, park services and local cops would not endorse getting physical with someone for cave diving without appropriate training or equipment. I can't imagine anyone could get any of these parties to state otherwise. Getting in someones face and calling them names in some juvenile hate fest is not going to encourage ow divers to reconsider their actions, it'll probably encourage them to come back later in defiance. Getting physical with someone should not be taken lightly.
Verbal communication is very powerful and should be the first course of action. Notifying people charged with the authority to carry out law/policy enforcement should follow.