Dynamiting caves

[phillip1]

So I read a book about the history of the CDG and in it it clearly states that dry cavers in the UK and france have on several occasions used dynamite to blast open a passage when a survey shows a close connection but no natural one exists.

What is the rationale with this? I don't really get it, but then again I am not a dry caver.

[ScubaSteveL]

The rationale...? The heck if I know!! Maybe just to say there is now a connection, they are too lazy to find the natural connection, or just because they're French (I don't like the French...). Sounds like the dry cavers became miners by blasting tunnels underground. The whole point of being in caves, above water or below water, should be to enjoy their natural beauty. There are plenty of old mines to take tours of... No need to make new ones of your own.

[DA Aquamaster]

It's a matter of degree. In MX I clearly saw numerous places where cave formations were broken to allow room for divers to pass into going sections of cave. In fact in the recent calimba video posted here (where someone commented on the video subject "breaking" a formation - which looked a lot more like moving an already loose short stalagmite) that area of the system contains a few such "windows" that were created. Unfortunately if you loo around you'll also see other such windows that looked promising but apparently did not lead to going sections of cave, but that obviously was not evident at the time. In N FL it's not uncommon to dig here and there and if you read up on the history of P3 it's evident that divers dug through the sand slides on the main line and in the parallel line, opening up the entire back half of the cave.

So...in that regard, the use of a little dynamite, while on the extreme end of the scale, is not much different in terms of overall intent, although it clearly roars right past any modern day limits we have from a conservation perspective.

[PfcAJ]

Didn't Sheck bash out the Lips with a scuba tank?

[phillip1]

Although yes I agree breaking decorations is a big time no no, if it opens up another 15km of cave beyond I understand the rationale behind that, like everyone else on occasion I have moved rocks around and dug a little while exploring to see if it keeps going.

What I do not understand is that if no natural connection exists between two cave systems and it is a known fact why dynamite a cave to create one?

[Brent]

On the "other side of the coin" the idiots here in Florida used to dynamite caves to keep us out. Morrison is an example of going to the extreme!

[huxley]

I would say a tool that comes with a price but might open up possibilities.
We are blasting several miles of tunnels through mountains so people get quicker to the destination, it makes travel safer and so on. Our ancestors carved caves/ homes into limestone and we now admire those places of civilization. There are cave explorations that I know of where boring has been used to shortcut several miles in order to keep exploration going and bypassing the wet area of the cave/ sump (Blautopf).
Why not? sometimes a little bit of damage is necessary and worth it. I'm sure you caused some damage by breaking things, digging in the sand or whatever to explore further. Every move we do comes with a price. Nothing against preservation of caves but sometimes I think we take it a bit too far. Might it be early cave drawings or mining/ tunneling or even diving in caves, this all takes toll on the system, some more some less. Some people pump out sand to create / open up a cave under water, some lower the water level. If you ever experience what fractioning, coal mining or others (salt, lime....) really does, that little damage that is done by blasting of an opening is an itch that you don't even scratch.

[phillip1]

First of all building tunnels below mountains and mining have absolutely nothing to do with exploring caves.

Yes I have done damage to caves, like every single cave diver I have broken stalactites by mistake (and every single one of you have without exception) and yes I have also moved rocks around and dug a little to see if a cave continues, however if I know for a fact that no natural connection between two systems exists I will under no circumstances try to create one.

I agree that a little bit of damage such as a small bore hole to open up major new passages is I suppose acceptable (I would not do it but I understand), but dynamiting caves (I am not talking about mining but exploring caves) is way too extreme, I thought we were supposed to preserve the fragile cave environment.

I also agree 100% that Taino indians or prehistoric man were defacing caves by drawing, carving or painting on the cave walls (this is exactly the same as a kid with a spray can only 1000 years ago), the Taino indians were littering big time in the caves here and in some entrances there are more broken pieces of pottery that rocks. It just seems interesting today for archeological purposes but it is really just plain littering really.

But still dynamiting caves to create a connection were one does not exist makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

[DA Aquamaster]

Although yes I agree breaking decorations is a big time no no, if it opens up another 15km of cave beyond I understand the rationale behind that, like everyone else on occasion I have moved rocks around and dug a little while exploring to see if it keeps going.

What I do not understand is that if no natural connection exists between two cave systems and it is a known fact why dynamite a cave to create one?

You've provided your own answer.

You understand the rationale for breaking some decorations to, in effect, re-open a natural connection, or at least make it large enough to get a diver through the connection in order to open up a significant portion of cave.

How is that different than using dynamite to connect two nearby passages that don't have a known connection large enough to let a diver through?

[Duncan Price]

So I read a book about the history of the CDG and in it it clearly states that dry cavers in the UK and france have on several occasions used dynamite to blast open a passage when a survey shows a close connection but no natural one exists.

What is the rationale with this? I don't really get it, but then again I am not a dry caver.

Explosives are used from time to time to enlarge restrictions or break up rocks blocking access to otherwise open passages. Only on very rare occasions are mining techniques used to tunnel through solid rock - usually to provide a bypass to another route to the same place which might be vulnerable (by virtue of cave formations) or dangerous (loose rock). Caver's are not making their own caves - mearely making natural ones accessable to them.

It is an emotive subject but the minimum amounts of "chemical persuasion" are used, usually when manual techniques (a hammer and chisel) have failed. The aquisition, transport and storage of explosives are tightly controlled in many juristictions.