When Things Go Wrong

[Superlyte27]

Actually, anyone can get a copy of the police report once it's finalized.

[Tegg]

That's not what I heard - too big to fit WHERE THE STUDENTS WENT, not where he told them to go.


Think about that, you tell your students to take the second jump to the left, but they take the first, through a restriction that you can't fit through. You flash your light to get their attention, but they have already turned the corner. What do you do?

Well, I would probably wait there for as long as I had the gas, but if I knew Edd was at the surface prepping for a dive (practically everybody at the pavilion knows what others' plans are) I would consider going and getting him.

Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...

It is worth mentioning that instructors should probably not take students in the area of caves that they do not fully know VERY well.

It is worth the instructor's time to spend lots of dives on their own getting to know the caves they plan to teach in.. At least spending the time getting to know the first 1500 or so feet of the cave. Every freaking hole in the cave is worth knowing. Spending the time to know the cave in this case would have allowed the instructor to know that there was a restriction nearby that he could not fit through. As such, he would have stopped them before he allowed the scenario to play out. It is standard practice for an instructor to allow "mistakes" to be made by students and allow the student to realize the mistake as they do the dive, but again, this would need to be done in a cave and passage that the instructor has explored previously.

I really hope that the instructor mentioned in this incident takes the time to do a Incident Analysis Report and posts it. As a fellow scuba instructor, I know that we ALL make mistakes, but being able to take a step back and look at an incident during a write up and fielding some questions will make one a better instructor and will "clear the air" of all the conjecture that takes place on forums when lack of information seems to be the standard practice as of late for incidents and accidents.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

That was far too sensible a post from you Joe, did someone steal your login?

[aainslie]

Andrew, there are thousands of feet of line in JB that do not appear on any map, most put in in the last 6 or so years. Most in the back, but a few places pretty close up front.

Up in the front 1500 feet or so, there are probably 6 or 8 different jumps you can take, some well known, some not, and there are jumps off of some of those jumps. Sucker lines in most of them, just to make it look interesting. Some of the side passages are large, but there are some serious mole holes. There are a couple of short circuits that are used for training, and they are not too bad, but if you jump off of the circuit then you are in a bunch of tight silty stuff. There are two that I know of that are vertical cracks, where if you go up, it just gets tighter. We had a guy get physically stuck in a crack a couple of years back, and eventually drown.

And as you said, if you get turned around, and do not have the presence of mind to just be patient, then the silt never leaves you as you struggle to get out.

Anyhow, this is pure speculation on my part, but my point is that there are lots of spots in JB that are not big, tourist cave.

Fair enough John. I've played with a couple of those lines myself. But there are some good circuits in JB that don't need to go near that stuff. And if you do see someone putting in a reel that leads to some silty crap, it takes long enough to put a jump in that it should be easy to swim over and stop the guy. To ALLOW him to do a jump really requires either incredible slowness... or being lost.

A possibility is that the student did an accidental jump without a reel. I'll give you that. That could be scary for an instructor.

Still... A key aspect of training dives is to make sure you're deeply in control.

[Kirk]

To the individuals that were involved in this unfortunate incident – I have some of your gear. This evening I was in the system. On my way in I saw a couple spools and a mess of line. I assume these were deployed to find the permanent line. Upon exiting, I stopped to retrieve the spools (total of 3). I ended up spending about 15 minutes unweaving the elaborate web created of string and rock. Assuming you’ll want them back, I’ll leave the spools over at Cave Adventurers in the morning. Note to all – the permanent line in this little tunnel / vertical fissure is still pretty messed up. I didn’t bother trying to fix it, for I’ve never been in this passage, thus have no idea how it’s usually lined. - Kirk

[RN]

So, another lesson learned is to make sure your instructor isn't bigger than you?


Ruh-roh . . .

Don't worry. I'm pretty sure I can get through anything you can...

there are thousands of feet of line in JB that do not appear on any map, most put in in the last 6 or so years. Most in the back, but a few places pretty close up front.

Don't be so quick to make such a statement. Most of JB is mapped, just not publicly available.

[Jay]

Joe,

What you are mentioning is plain common sense. Who was it who said "Common sense isn't that common."?

Unfortunately, as you well know and as other experienced cave divers know it is like spitting into the wind.

The majority of folks know and understand common sense rules of cave divng and do their best to not put themselves in situations where events like this and many other incidents could occur.

Sadly there are a few folks out there who just do not get it or just do not care and never will get it.

It is worth mentioning that instructors should probably not take students in the area of caves that they do not fully know VERY well.

It is worth the instructor's time to spend lots of dives on their own getting to know the caves they plan to teach in.. At least spending the time getting to know the first 1500 or so feet of the cave. Every freaking hole in the cave is worth knowing. Spending the time to know the cave in this case would have allowed the instructor to know that there was a restriction nearby that he could not fit through. As such, he would have stopped them before he allowed the scenario to play out. It is standard practice for an instructor to allow "mistakes" to be made by students and allow the student to realize the mistake as they do the dive, but again, this would need to be done in a cave and passage that the instructor has explored previously.

I really hope that the instructor mentioned in this incident takes the time to do a Incident Analysis Report and posts it. As a fellow scuba instructor, I know that we ALL make mistakes, but being able to take a step back and look at an incident during a write up and fielding some questions will make one a better instructor and will "clear the air" of all the conjecture that takes place on forums when lack of information seems to be the standard practice as of late for incidents and accidents.

[OFG-1]

Don't be so quick to make such a statement. Most of JB is mapped, just not publicly available.

Rob, I wouldn't be so quick to tell everyone that there are people that have navigational information that they do not wish to share with anyone else, except their closest friends, particularly not with people coming from out of state, some with students, who have never been in the system.

Kinda sounds bad doesn't it? Maybe its better to say it doesn't appear on any map?

[Jax]

Rob, I wouldn't be so quick to tell everyone that there are people that have navigational information that they do not wish to share with anyone else, except their closest friends, particularly not with people coming from out of state, some with students, who have never been in the system.

Kinda sounds bad doesn't it? Maybe its better to say it doesn't appear on any map?

Confused . . . If there is one thing that I have noticed it is that navigational info is NOT readily available except to the cave diving community. I understand that one would go to a local shop to find out that information.

Isn't it a safety measure so that non-trained divers don't attempt (or be tempted into) the caves?

[CaveMD]

Don't be so quick to make such a statement. Most of JB is mapped, just not publicly available.

I'm finding this to be true for several very popular "tourist" caves. Many sidemount/no mount passages are left off.



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