Do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves?

[sskasser]

LOL, well, it looks like I've already scared Mike and Ken out PA

Jamie, that don't sound nuts to me! But then...consider the source

Jaydubya, you are quite right! I was severely missing my SM on Sunday! It got better, well, until I had to get out of the water with them things on my back! It was great seeing ya, even in my time of distress

Gene, yes, this will be my first time at Dutch. I'm really looking forward to it! Don't worry, we'll find the going passage and tell ya all about it!

GSK3...sorry for the hijack!

[WEPIV]

GSK3...sorry for the hijack!

You're just so darn popular...

[gsk3]

No worries.

You going to be at Dutch this weekend? I can whine about the hijack in person . I mean...go diving with ya

Ari

[RGU]

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES!

More shipwrecks than most people can dive in a life time; and that dosen't count the wrecks yet to be found. I know of two teams dragging side scan sonar every day they can get out right now.
We are currently diving in 39 degree water. The Lakes aren't just cold. they are dark and deep.

[Sharky1948]

More shipwrecks than most people can dive in a life time; and that dosen't count the wrecks yet to be found. I know of two teams dragging side scan sonar every day they can get out right now.
We are currently diving in 39 degree water. The Lakes aren't just cold. they are dark and deep.

And for us NE divers, the preservation of the wrecks in that cold, freshwater are incredible to see!!! (Of course, we all have to dive with our hands shackled behind our backs to help us resist the temptations....)

[DogDiver]

When laying line in Great Lakes wrecks the only thing I changed was the thickness of my line. Often in wrecks I would use 48# line because of the abrasion on rusty sharp metal found in wrecks and using dry gloves. Other than that, no other changes. Saved my ass once diving the engine room on The Cederville in the Straits of Mackinac a few years ago. Lost bouyancy in there and created a 100% siltout. Rust, engine oil, greese.....very nasty. Had to cut myself out of my tangled line too. Then exited with my buddy just like any drill we learned in our Cave Courses.

[RGU]

And for us NE divers, the preservation of the wrecks in that cold, freshwater are incredible to see!!! (Of course, we all have to dive with our hands shackled behind our backs to help us resist the temptations....)

As one who dove them before they all became protected -I had a good friend who never went out without at least two 30 gallon lift drums strapped to the top of his Great Lakes fish tug- I find it better to always carry a camera of some kind when I'm diving them now.

[sskasser]

No worries.

You going to be at Dutch this weekend? I can whine about the hijack in person . I mean...go diving with ya

Ari

Nope, Florida caves this weekend. I'll be at Dutch June 18-19. Maybe we'll see ya then! Whine away!

[quickean]

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES!

Yeah once you come up and dive them you'll see... They are more like fresh water oceans with thousands upon thousands of shipwrecks scattered over them.

[TraceMalin]

This topic came up on another forum and I thought I'd see what the line-laying experts here thought. For those of you who dive both, do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves, and if so how and why?

Specifically:
-Do you always do primary and secondary ties to start?
-Do you tie more frequently in a wreck vs. a cave?
-Do you change where you lay the line?
-Do you add things like strobes in key places?
-Do you still use cookies and arrows in a wreck?

I'm speaking mostly of wreck penetration here. Comments on laying line Jersey-style to get you back to the anchor line in low vis situations are welcome also.

Always primary tie-off outside or to a clearly safe exit if exterior tie-off point isn't present. Secondary just inside wreck. Same principle as cave diving.

You tend to tie more frequently in wrecks since most cave dives are done where permanent lines are present. But, it depends. Novice guidelines in wrecks like the Spiegel Grove are poorly placed. Most wrecks are best explored by combining running line with learning the wreck. There is a greater chance of breaking the line on the sharp metal of a wreck.

If lost in a wreck away from the line, locating your line may be more difficult due to many right angles, bulkheads, dead ends, and insane number of entanglement and entrapment hazards. You may require longer lines on safety reels and even another primary for a safety. Line is often best laid low in wrecks and caves, but may change based upon environment or available tie-off points. The important thing is not to create entanglement hazards or place line in traps.

Exits in wrecks even with good technique might be silty. Strobes are an option to aid in wreck diving safety, but should never replace good directional awareness and guideline skills. For example, if you were lost in a wreck and found another way out, a strobe on the anchor line might allow you to spot it in poor visibility. Returning to a stable environmental tool like the anchor line in a low gas situation quickly could expedite the ascent and allow one to conserve gas during deco by hanging onto the line rather than needlessly waste gas through buoyancy control with the lungs during a free ascent - especially when the diver is stressed or tired from getting out of a bad situation in the first place.

While popping a bag is an option, a boat without a chase boat might break down at the most inopportune time. Ours broke down on a shallow wreck today 2 hours after we left the strong current of the Spiegel Grove.

Some wrecks such as artificial reefs would lend themselves to permanent lines with arrows allowing interesting tours for trained divers. Arrows are an option. Long penetrations could be aided with strategic placement of arrows for comfort during silty exits or in the event of a loss of light. An arrow could also indicate a buddy has left during a lost buddy situation. A back-up light on the guideline could also help communicate an exit. Leave the guideline in place for a lost buddy and mark the position you last saw your buddy for when your buddy locates the line or for rescue/recovery teams. A cookie may work, so would an arrow pointing out, the reel, or a back-up light. Running a line back to a tie-off within reach of the anchor or upline is acceptable for both low and high visibility diving. A quick road home may save a life.

While many techniques may be cross referenced, each environment is unique and the style of diving depending upon location and conditions would dictate acceptable procedures. Every wreck and every cave provides a unique challenge for the casual or dedicated explorer to dive within his or her training and abilities. What do you do in a given situation? As Rich Courtney so sagely put it at Cave East last week when we were discussing a jump procedure, "It depends." Procedures and rules are guidelines and a diver needs to use common sense and sometimes improvisation to survive. In both cave diving and wreck diving, "Be trained and don't exceed the level of one's training," is a good place to start. Just like wreck divers don't know what they don't know inside a cave, a cave diver might not have all the information for surviving a wreck.