Rules of Engagement?? what have you done?

[guau]

Lots of good posts here. I have found over the years that "you can't fix stupid" but we must keep trying to! We will help some from making fatal mistakes as long as we all try.

[adam0321]

its just amazing to me how hard headed some people can be.

[adam0321]

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

[Line Squirrel]

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

The answer is basically "no" cards are not pulled, if ever, even though your instructor would like you to believe he can do it whenever he/she wants to.

I suppose if an instructor had an unusually good re pore with an agency, like if Tom Mount was your personal buddy or something you might convince him to pull someones card for some egregious action(s).

A bigger agency, like PADI or NAUI...no way. It's hard enough getting them to pull someones gold card (instructor card) even if they get someone killed, Their not going to bother with a legitimately issued OW card.

I've heard it threatened alot but I do not know of an instance where it EVER actually happened.

Besides, once you have the card....you have the card. How are they going to get it back? There is no renew or expiration date on them (with the exception if GUE) There is no annual black list of "pulled cards" issued to dive operations.

[DA Aquamaster]

I suppose if an instructor had an unusually good re pore with an agency, like if Tom Mount was your personal buddy or something you might convince him to pull someones card for some egregious action(s).

I loaned Tom Mount some dry suit zipper lube and it was at Ginnie with OW divers nearby. Does that count?

[sskasser]

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

Think of an OW card like a diploma. Just because my instructors taught me, and tested me, on all the requirements for a diploma, doesn't mean I still utilize the information or have even retained it. The diploma is still valid because it simply means that at one point in time, I met the requirements.

[FW]

I loaned Tom Mount some dry suit zipper lube ...

Did he ever give it back?

[DA Aquamaster]

Think of an OW card like a diploma. Just because my instructors taught me, and tested me, on all the requirements for a diploma, doesn't mean I still utilize the information or have even retained it. The diploma is still valid because it simply means that at one point in time, I met the requirements.

Forest is right on the money.

Building on that, OW is like basic math - fairly easy to teach and reasonably easy to retain, and most people can remember it fairly well even after long periods of disuse. But none the less, some people still suck at it and/or refuse to use it.

Cave diving is more like algebra or calculus - harder to teach, more difficult to master, can only be attempted after you master basic math and the skills involved are very perishable skills that you will lose if you do not use them fairly frequently. Ask the average college grad who passed college level algebra to solve a fairly easy quadratic equation 3 years after they passed their last algebra class and most will be hard pressed to answer it correctly, let alone efficiently without some serious thought or warm up attempts. Many won't be able to do it at all.

[OutlawCaver]

If we can draw an analogy with the aviation arena, consider this: A individual having trained for, and earned, their private pilot's license, understands the following:

a) Although the plane I am flying may be capable of aerobatic maneuvers, I do not have the training nor the experience to do such

b) Although the plane I am flying may have instruments for safely being flown in poor weather, I do not have the training nor the experience to do such

So the pilot learns, that although the airspace and aircraft exists to do these things in, they are avoided because the training and experience is not in place.

So too, the diver must learn that although the cave exists and the equipment may have been acquired, they do not have the training nor the experience to safely dive the cave environment.

We could also compare OW diving to cave diving to that of fixed wing flight and rotary wing flight this way:

In straight and level flight, a fixed wing pilot can take their hands off the controls and the plane will "somewhat" fly itself, albeit, undulate up and down some. The rotary wing pilot knows that if he take his hands off the cyclic and the collective and feet off the anti-torque pedals, he is going one way and that is down.

Same thing with OW versus cave diving. In OW diving you can take your mind off the dive, "let go of the controls" so to speak and not much changes. Not so in cave diving.

[DA Aquamaster]

Did he ever give it back?

I don't recall - I was distracted by the hot, young rebreather student with the British accent that he was with.