How to gain Landowner permission to access cave?

[jkaterenchuk]

I would be interesting in hearing different options and strategies for convincing a Landowner to allow access to a cave diving site?

The land around the site is used for storage of old equipment and the Landowner has no interest in diving or cave diving.

We need to convince the Landowner to allow us to do some initial dives to determine the scope of the site but I suspect questions will come up regarding use after the initial dives if the location is good.

I also suspect questions regarding insurance and liability will arise and need to be addressed.

John

[Sludge]

There is an excellent article on this by Mike Poucher in the book, Cave Diving: Articles and Opinions. It is entitled, "Landowner Relations."

[LiteHedded]

try approaching him with your wallet open

also, I read this title as how to gain lawnmower permission and was very confused...

[jkaterenchuk]

There is an excellent article on this by Mike Poucher in the book, Cave Diving: Articles and Opinions. It is entitled, "Landowner Relations."

Can you give a short summary. I do not have the book at this time.

John

[jkaterenchuk]

try approaching him with your wallet open

also, I read this title as how to gain lawnmower permission and was very confused...

I want to try other free options first. If the intial dives result in a good results then I am sure some financial discussion will need to be held. I suspect the Landowner does not need the money and does not want any problems or issues as a result of allowing access to the site.

John

[Sludge]

short summary.

Go to the landowner with the following in hand: copies of all your certification cards, some maps, photos taken in caves, and liability waivers. If he seems to balk, offer to leave them with him and come back in a week or so after he's had time to look them over.

Tell him you'll be happy to give him copies of any maps you draw and photos you take.

[Kelly Jessop]

Know the legalities in the state you have an interest,for example Florida has the Sportsman's Act which provides the landowner some protection. Local grottos may be of help having dealt with the same issues. What can you provide the landowner in return-map,land clearing etc.

[jlillest]

In Southwest Virginia we have a joke that landowners should always be approached with a Bible in one back pocket and a flask of whiskey in the other. After greeting the landowner and talking for a brief moment you pull out the appropriate tool to make your new friend.

Obviously, asking a landowner to enter his dry cave (which he can somewhat understand) and enter his blue hole (which makes absolutely no sense to him at all) is two different situations. In my experience, when a landowner is friendly and willing to consider outside people coming on his land, the only thing that needs to happen is for you to convince the landowner that you're a genuine person and that you won't do anything to hurt his land or livelihood. In Appalachia we run into a lot of Xenophobic landowners that just don't like people and consider shooting at cavers a sport. But for the most part, landowners are friendly and will discuss with you their land and cave/spring whether they are willing to let you enter it that day or not. When landowners have concerns, address them. Liability is a common one, and being part of a large organization, like the NSS-CDS, helps to allay concerns that you're not just some random bozo that decided to buy his scuba gear on ebay yesterday. Beyond that, there are "hold harmless" contracts that we sometimes carry with us that helps ease some liability concerns.

Beyond that, if you think this is a cool enough dive site, you could try discussing a lease of the spring or even purchasing it from him to manage the liability risk for him. This will involve a little bit of funding and is a late-in-the-game strategy but well worth it for securing cave access over the long term.

This comes from experience working with landowners in AL, TN and VA, so Florida (or Pennsyltucky, perhaps?) landowners is not something I know much about although I'll guess that it's fairly similar. Hope this helps and feel free to add more details if you have them.

[LiteHedded]

In Southwest Virginia we have a joke that landowners should always be approached with a Bible in one back pocket and a flask of whiskey in the other. After greeting the landowner and talking for a brief moment you pull out the appropriate tool to make your new friend.

Obviously, asking a landowner to enter his dry cave (which he can somewhat understand) and enter his blue hole (which makes absolutely no sense to him at all) is two different situations. In my experience, when a landowner is friendly and willing to consider outside people coming on his land, the only thing that needs to happen is for you to convince the landowner that you're a genuine person and that you won't do anything to hurt his land or livelihood. In Appalachia we run into a lot of Xenophobic landowners that just don't like people and consider shooting at cavers a sport. But for the most part, landowners are friendly and will discuss with you their land and cave/spring whether they are willing to let you enter it that day or not. When landowners have concerns, address them. Liability is a common one, and being part of a large organization, like the NSS-CDS, helps to allay concerns that you're not just some random bozo that decided to buy his scuba gear on ebay yesterday. Beyond that, there are "hold harmless" contracts that we sometimes carry with us that helps ease some liability concerns.

Beyond that, if you think this is a cool enough dive site, you could try discussing a lease of the spring or even purchasing it from him to manage the liability risk for him. This will involve a little bit of funding and is a late-in-the-game strategy but well worth it for securing cave access over the long term.

This comes from experience working with landowners in AL, TN and VA, so Florida (or Pennsyltucky, perhaps?) landowners is not something I know much about although I'll guess that it's fairly similar. Hope this helps and feel free to add more details if you have them.

I know in the Tallahassee area leasing a piece of less desirable land has lead landowners to grand access to springs and sinks. if all else fails, money talks.

[rjack]

For those with "hold harmless" letters or waivers would you mind attaching copies or posting the specific language which has worked in the past? Seems like there's a fine line between legalese they are ok with and confusion. I don't need names or addresses, just example text. Yes I realize the "Sportsman's act" citations are state specific.
Thanks