Cave Damage at Little River!!!

[Mike Edmonston]

UGH!

I was diving little river 2 days ago, and in the serpentine tunnel, there was fresh serious rock damage of the lower tunnel plane where it meets with the clay. By all accounts, it looks like someone was trying to Nomount a 12" x12" hole, and broke off a 10" piece of the tunnel. Not being satisfied with that, they tried it again next to it and broke an even biger piece off a second formation.

When our team went in around 4:30, there was only 1 team in the system, and they passed us in sidemount right after the chimmney. Now I am not accusing them of doing this, but the system was so blitzed out, that I had to basically do a line drill to find the shute! We had at best 3' of vis!!! This continued until we hit the damage at the serpentine tunnel, and past that the vis was great!

The damage was so fresh, that the fresh silt had not even had a chance to settle on the bone white fractures.

I just talked with John, and he's going to take some pictures and post them tomorrow night.

People, this has got to stop. Sidemounting does not give you the right to destroy the friggin cave! I choose to sidemount because it MINIMIZES the damage that backmount would do in certain areas. For pete's sake, use some common sense!

[defunct]

ever been dry caving?

[Mike Edmonston]

ever been dry caving?

Uh... yes I have. And I don't use stalagtites as handholds, drive spikes in flowstone, or break off formations.

[defunct]

Uh... yes I have. And I don't use stalagtites as handholds, drive spikes in flowstone, or break off formations.

Have you ever heard of a dry caver "digging" a hole?

If not, you should read the NSS Publications.

[sskasser]

Mike,
Sidemounting (or even backmounting or no-mounting) isn't what damages the cave. It's the individual, and it's not limited to a particular gear configuration.

Also, you'll find many, varying, opinions as to what is "needless damage" and what is "exploration". If an entrance to going tunnel is barred by a 10" piece of rock, should that tunnel be forever closed to exploration?

I respect the caves, and enjoy the pristine beauty of the ones with little evidence of humans. However, I'm also realistic and know that some areas, wet or dry, are only accessible after a bit of digging.

Shirley

[Mike Edmonston]

Have you ever heard of a dry caver "digging" a hole?

If not, you should read the NSS Publications.

Well, I guess I need to read up then. I like to leave any cave as though I had never been in it. I do realise that sometimes damage is inevitable, but the damage at Little river was blatant.

If you feel like you want to condone these actions, then go ahead. I don't like to see caves broken up, graffitied, or scooter trenched! Maybe I'm the exception!

[defunct]

Well, I guess I need to read up then. I like to leave any cave as though I had never been in it. I do realise that sometimes damage is inevitable, but the damage at Little river was blatant.

If you feel like you want to condone these actions, then go ahead. I don't like to see caves broken up, graffitied, or scooter trenched! Maybe I'm the exception!

I did not say that I condone any actions. Just asking a few questions.

What if the damage had taken place the day before by some guy flying through the cave with a DPV?

[MORGAN]

I was a "dry" caver for years before taking up diving. It is true that destructive activities in attempting to make a lead "go" are much more common in dry caving than in cave diving.

The fact that it happens doesn't mean that it is right or universally accepted. Some cavers feel that either something goes or it doesn't, and if it doesn't you shouldn't be damaging the cave trying to make it go. Others feel that anything from hammers & crowbars to dynamite are fair methods for pushing a lead. In the middle are those who feel that digging out sand, clay, and loose rocks blocking a tube is OK, but that damaging solid rock or formations is not. I can see the argument for thoughtfully removing a small amount of rock in order to open up big cave beyond, but overall I incline toward the first school of thought. Don't be busting up the cave trying to go where you don't fit!

Mike

[Mike Edmonston]

I did not say that I condone any actions. Just asking a few questions.

What if the damage had taken place the day before by some guy flying through the cave with a DPV?

it's not in an area that would be hit by a DPV, or a diver with stages. It is down, to the left, and recessed. The thing is, that it's just a hole in the wall, it goes nowhere. You can reach it from the other side.

I understand exploration, and the damage caused by pushing a system through restrictions (for the greater good). But needless destruction of a formation for the hell of it, makes no sense to me, and really pisses me off!

Again, I am not accusing those guys from making the damage, for all I know they could have blitzed out the system playing with the catfish. I just found it odd that the "sandstorm" of silt, stopped right at the damage.

Whatever, I am just reporting what I saw. You guys get pissed, and start a reward when someone writes their name in the clay, but I get told to go and do some reading when I see broken formations, and damage to rocks!

Jeesh.....

[Oister]

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5687