Cave Damage at Little River!!!

[Gary]

take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles, kill nothing but time, touch nothing but water.

I like that one.

[Kelly Jessop]

This could be reality due to wear and tear in the cave system. Carrying capacity is a common approach when for example a trail gets too much attrition,no different for a cave system.

"Use photo points and direct observations
by cave divers to document current conditions and trends. Set carrying capacities for the
caves to ensure a quality visitor experience and to protect cave biota."

The above is a quote directly out of a DEP management plan. Basically what it is saying is that direct observation by cave divers will help determine the attrition in the cave,and this will set the carrying capacity (how many will be allowed in the cave in a given period). We are providing the direct observation on these forums by talking about this and "defacement at Orange Grove" since people outside the cave diving community use these forums. The attrition that is caused for what ever reason doesn't grant us more access,but limits our access and we need to be especially careful. Personally I would hope the "direct observation" is done in a proper manner,and not taken from the forums,but this is a conduit to keeping track of what is going on. Also,we need to use these forums to not just point the finger at attrition in caves,but real conscientious means to address this problem and educate.

[skip]

What would be a good protocol for "direct observation?" Photographs obviously help, but are not sufficient by themselves. A simple scale related to "wear and tear" may be worked out and could possibly be used to for relative comparisons. Something like a beaufort scale, but 1-10, with say 10 being pristine. But what does it take to get a 9? or 8? or less? What words would describe a 5 so that divers would be able to observe and rate?

A slate may be useful so that every 100 feet or so the cave could be "rated" and the ratings then tallied, or particularly problematic areas identified.

Once a scale is developed, perhaps a webpage could be set up with a form for divers to fill out to report their observations. This database could then be used by landowners and cave committees to help with decisions.

We can start with an informal descripitive list, then rate it from worse damage to least.

For example, I've seen fist-sized rocks broken off (both the rock on the floor and the white spot indicating where it came from); two of them in one short stretch, and a small 6-inch gouge in the clay nearby. Is that a 1? or a 2? maybe a 3?

What damage have you seen?

-skip

[akcaver]

I am not too happy about damage to caves, or any other natural environment for that matter. But it happens, its just how things are. When we enter into environments that arent our own, we inadvertantly change them. This applies to caving, cave diving, hiking, camping, anything we do. We all try our best to leave things as they were, but time to time we all mess up. I will be the first to say I have bumped into a wall, the ceiling, the floor; whichever you want. Its inadvertant 99.9 % of the time. We all have. But if you havent, then let us know how good you are. Ill give you a cookie

[curtschu]

I looked at this Saturday. It really does not appear to have anything to do with someone trying to enter the hole by making it bigger. If I had to guess I'm going to say a scooter go out of control or stuck on and hit the wall. This would also account for the siltout in the area. As for the statement that this is not an area that would be hit be a DVP I would say it would if it was stuck on and the rider was trying to jam it in a corner to get control. Pardon if this has already been said as I have not read each and every post.

Curt

[Ken Hill]

I read something very interesting the other day. To know how far our civilization has come read about the archeologists who, when searching caves, found the distinction between man and the ape was the writing on the cave walls.

Those that still write on walls have not come very far nor will they ever be ABLE to undo the damage they have done.

There will be wear and tear anyplace man goes, the SIERRA CLUB SAYS STICK TO THE TRAIL AND ADMIRE THE BEAUTY. We have the ability to hover over our domain and not contact anything. When we don't have that ability, stick to the line. When exploring, do your homework first, try to avoid damage. /Ken

[Kelly Jessop]

What would be a good protocol for "direct observation?" Photographs obviously help, but are not sufficient by themselves. A simple scale related to "wear and tear" may be worked out and could possibly be used to for relative comparisons. Something like a beaufort scale, but 1-10, with say 10 being pristine. But what does it take to get a 9? or 8? or less? What words would describe a 5 so that divers would be able to observe and rate?

A slate may be useful so that every 100 feet or so the cave could be "rated" and the ratings then tallied, or particularly problematic areas identified.

Once a scale is developed, perhaps a webpage could be set up with a form for divers to fill out to report their observations. This database could then be used by landowners and cave committees to help with decisions.

We can start with an informal descripitive list, then rate it from worse damage to least.

For example, I've seen fist-sized rocks broken off (both the rock on the floor and the white spot indicating where it came from); two of them in one short stretch, and a small 6-inch gouge in the clay nearby. Is that a 1? or a 2? maybe a 3?

What damage have you seen?

-skip

The photopoint system is a very good system and stands on its own. The key to it is have a control picture that will compensate for turbidity etc,then shoot pictures that can be replicated by a certain system. When these pictures are combined side by side it is an indicator of wear.