Trust Me Dive

[Lgreen]

Trust Me Dive

As stories are told around dive sites that may be factual or may be falsified, I would like to relate one such story I heard today.


This story involved an instructor acting as a guide for divers from out of the country diving at the Devil’s Ear cave system. The dive starts with no need for running a primary reel into the gold line of the system, or any reel to be used to do the bats circuit. This circuit by training standards would require a primary reel and four jump reels to accomplish. One of the divers on this dive upon using their one third gas supply before completing the circuit called the dive and wanted to return the route penetrated on. The guide encouraged the diver that it is shorter to continue. The diver refused and the team exited the route that they entered from.

If this story is factual I would like to commend the individual for maintaining their independence and not committing to this trust me dive any longer.

If the story is falsified we all should still recognize and consider every time we dive, that a major contributing factor for trained cave diver deaths has been the lack of a continuous guideline and/or a violation of proper gas management rules.

We should all strive and encourage others to maintain independence throughout each dive that we do.

Safe Diving
Larry Green

[Tegg]

Good post.

I have often heard stories of to many "trust me" dives by certified cave divers.

As you stated in the conference, there should be more emphasis on students NEVER doing trust me dives.

[Jim Wyatt]

Good post.

I there should be more emphasis on students NEVER doing trust me dives.

Students and certified cave divers alike.

[normblitch]

Larry,

Interesting to note that the two suspected violations were from the original Golden Rules, as opposed to the ones added thoughtfully in later years...

Wonderful to see you active on CDF...

Norm

Trust Me Dive

If the story is falsified we all should still recognize and consider every time we dive, that a major contributing factor for trained cave diver deaths has been the lack of a continuous guideline and/or a violation of proper gas management rules.


Safe Diving
Larry Green

[ARY]

... The dive starts with no need for running a primary reel into the gold line of the system, or any reel to be used to do the bats circuit. ..... The guide encouraged the diver that it is shorter to continue. The diver refused and the team exited the route that they entered from.

If that "wise" diver did all these visuals following the guide (first mistake) in unfamiliar system then IMHO he made a mistake later not trusting the guide. The fact is that he was not familiar with route makes his desigion dangerous: the way back may be silted up at that point, guide knows system much better than any other team member, survival probability is higher i a group. The diver was wrong twice: agreeing with visuals and insisting on to return by the enter route.

[Angie Reim]

... The dive starts with no need for running a primary reel into the gold line of the system, or any reel to be used to do the bats circuit. ..... The guide encouraged the diver that it is shorter to continue. The diver refused and the team exited the route that they entered from.

If that "wise" diver did all these visuals following the guide (first mistake) in unfamiliar system then IMHO he made a mistake later not trusting the guide. The fact is that he was not familiar with route makes his desigion dangerous: the way back may be silted up at that point, guide knows system much better than any other team member, survival probability is higher i a group. The diver was wrong twice: agreeing with visuals and insisting on to return by the enter route.

I disagree. The diver recognized that he had made a mistake. That visual jump sent off alarms, hitting 1/3's was his 'over the top'. In his mind he had a known mental route to return vs. an unknown route with someone who already violated basic rules. He may have been kicking himself already for making a 'trust me' dive. True there may have been a silt out on exit but also he may have been planning to use his reels to effect a return. How observant he was regarding the placement of arrows at the jumps etcetera - only he knows. Doesn't sound like he was planning to make the return route alone anyway. The guide should certainly 'know' the return route. Ultimately we are responsible for our own safety. Even guides can make mistakes. Even guides can become ill underwater. What a mess that would be if your guide had a problem, needed help and you were somewhere past 1/3's in an unknown system with no continuous guideline. Makes me shudder to think about it.

[curtschu]

DON'T make visual jumps! but every one of us has done it or will in the future. I think the biggest problem is the divers in this team were not fully briefed on what to expect and no hard rules were discussed. IE: if you hit thirds at this point (show map, Describe features) we are going to continue. But this leaves the team at the mercy of the guideline. It becomes a matter of what risks you are willing to take. I personally don't like to take those risks, but I have. I made the visual jump back on the main line coming out of the Bone room passage at Devils. This is a jump of what four feet? onto Gold Line with Arrows pointing out in a KNOWN place in the main passage. At that time I took a risk that I felt was reasonable. Others will say no. But then there are those that take a trust me dive almost every time they dive. They are squeezing into places that there is no way a buddy could help them so they are TRUSTING the equipment and their experience. If this is a reasonable risk for them have at it. It’s not my cup of tea. The bottom line is that there are rules in place to help keep you alive in an environment you where never designed to be in. If you push or ignore those rules you put the whole industry at risk. How great that risk is remains a true unknown. You put yourself at risk which may have impacts you did not consider. Larry makes a great point I just hope we all can be honest with ourselves and our dive buddy on what we consider reasonable and un-necessary risk to enjoy our sport.

[JoeB]

I have never dove with a "Guide" before, but I plan to in the future. I personally would not want to dive with a "guide" or any other experienced diver that might be upset or offended that I want to dive within the rules or my level of training. If nothing else I would want to do so for the practice, even in a place I am familiar with (so I'm comfortable later in an unfamiliar place). If they appear to be upset or offended I would simply "pass" on the dive & "live to dive another day."

[DeWayne]

DON'T make visual jumps! but every one of us has done it or will in the future.

There really is no reason to make visual jumps these days. In the past many of us opted to go this route simply because we did not want to run a 50ft or longer spool/reel across a span of only a couple of feet. Thanks to boredom and being away from his wife, a cave diver solved this problem by making up some mini-spools, perfect for those short jumps as they only hold about 20ft of line and are compact enough that you can keep several in your pocket. If you have not tried one yet, PM me and I will put you in contact with the man who makes them.

I think the biggest problem is the divers in this team were not fully briefed on what to expect and no hard rules were discussed. IE: if you hit thirds at this point (show map, Describe features) we are going to continue. But this leaves the team at the mercy of the guideline.

This should be an indication that you are about to dive with the wrong person. If the divers were not familiar with the system then the circuit should have been set up according to training standards: take one route until thirds, mark the line with a non-directional, then complete the circuit on a second dive providing of course that you make it to your marker before hitting thirds. Even if you are willing to take the risk, the rest of us are not and we need to keep in mind that our actions in the cave will always have a greater impact than we choose to believe; the risk that some are willing to take will ultimately affect the entire diving community.

I am glad that Larry posted this, I just hope that it is one of those falsified stories.

[jammer]

well I had someone invite me to do a dive in the Devils ear and not to run a primary I told him to go and make his dive I will wait on someone else. well he proceeded and I was looking for someone who didn't mind running a primary well guy I dove with and his buddy had never dove through the Devils Eye so we whent through the Eye and we was not 10 min. behind the previous guy and as we were exiting I see the guy that solo dived and was scowering around the walls looking for the exit to the ear as the river had rose and covered the entrance with tanic water and the sun was setting he gave the ? with the exit behind it so we put him in the middle of our group and brought him out. He said he saw our primary but didn't know how far or where it led to and he was happy to see us. And said he would never ever make another visual jump ever again.