Trust Me Dive

[Gary]

If that "wise" diver did all these visuals following the guide (first mistake) in unfamiliar system then IMHO he made a mistake later not trusting the guide. ... The diver was wrong twice: agreeing with visuals and insisting on to return by the enter route.

I think he was right to insist on returning the way he came. It was not a commited traverse at that point and he still had the posibility of making it out the way he came in safely.

Going farther and then having a problem such as a lost guide or problems that later forced a turn around would add a lot more stress and danger to the situation.

It is bad to trust your dive plan to a guide in the first place - but far worse to abandon your safety, critical thinking and judgement as well.

Turning the TEAM including the guide at that point was the best choice despite earlier errors,

[ARY]

Is there any commonly accepted, lawful or ethical list of UW Cave Guide responsibilities? Is guide in charge for the safety of the group, teams and\or each individual member of the dive? In case when other group members would decide to continue circuit what that guide should do, whoes safety is more important: one vs two/three ?

Switching that question in slightly other direction: why would you think that instructor should be in charge for the safety of students except ethical cd traditions? IMHO ultimately each diver is responsible for his own safety and judgement, the task left to instructor would be to teach in accordance with standards and verify how resulting skills match agency requirements (we all know however that best mentors are personally involved with their students/clients success).

[Genesis]

IMHO no other diver is responsible for my safety - whether an instructor, guide or otherwise.

If I am not comfortable with the dive at any time, the thumb comes out. If that thumb is ignored the universal salute comes next, followed immediately by my exit.

This principle guides most of my views regarding diving, including my view on formal training and certifications. I realize that in many cases it is followed more in the breach than the observance, and that both saddens and concerns me, because when that "first rule" is broken people have a nasty habit of getting hurt - or worse.

[MK7]

Never do a trust-me dive. Never make a visual jump or gap. Sounds noble.

I wonder, though, do any of you ever do the Orange Grove - Peacock traverse? What do you do about the gap at Challenge? There are several options.

You can swim from Peacock to Challenge, set a gap reel at Challenge and either Olsen or the Peanut Restriction, swim back, drive to Orange Grove, make the dive (picking up your reels), get out, drive back to Orange Grove, get back in the water and pick up your primary reel.

Or you can do a couple of visual gaps.

It's up to you. If you want to do it the "correct" way, I salute you. But if you want to do it the "wrong" way, you're an adult. You can make your own decisions. Every time you get on the highway you're taking a chance - driving is probably more hazardous than doing a visual gap at Challenge.

So if anyone admits to doing these visuals, how did you first do them? As a trust-me dive with someone that's made the dive several dozen times? A trust-me dive is just that: you're trusting your life to someone else. I don't take that lightly. I wouldn't do a trust-me dive with just any old experienced diver. It would have to be with someone that's so familiar with the system that I could comfortably "trust him with my life."

We're adults. The question is, how much risk are you willing to take? If the answer is, "none," then I suggest you stay in bed with the covers pulled up over your head. And hope a meteor doesn't strike your house.

MK7

[Gary]

I wonder, though, do any of you ever do the Orange Grove - Peacock traverse? What do you do about the gap at Challenge?

Since the gap at Challenge is in open water your example is a poor one. I use to make the same arguement about the gap to the peanut tunnel line on grand traverse - which I guess does still apply.

[jammer]

I understand that everyone is at there own risk when diving period but to be lazy and not run a continuous guideline to open water when diving in an overhead enviroment is crazy. i for one was not taught that way and maybe some of the ones who don't need to do a dive with a couple instructors i will not name and they would definately show you why you should.

[John L.]

I'm not an advocate for not running reels. In fact, I do so more so than not. But if you are, say in Ginnie, at the end of the big room jumping back to the main line when you have done it dozens, and dozens of times, and you are with someone who also had done that route many times, and it was discussed prior to the dive, a visual jump is doable. I would never take anyone who is new, or not experienced in a particular circuit without running a line, and explaining in detail ALL aspects of the dive, and what to expect at certain points of the dive. I took some friends who were not familier with the bat circuit for a tour. I ran a primary thru the eye, used four jump reels, and pointed out highlights along the way that we talked about during the dive. They were not at all stressed because they told me that everything I told them during the dive was just the way I discribed it. At the end of the weekend, I had to go the reverse route to pull my reels, but it made their dive enjoyable, and minimized their stress.

[Tegg]

FYI.

Doing a visual gap at an intersection that you know well and can see the line you are jumping to, is not a "trust me" dive. You are tursting yourself, not someone else who may be leading you.

This post was about going into a cave and skipping the line runs when you personally have no idea if where you are jumping to will lead out.

[Genesis]

A visual gap where you can REACH the other line can still be crossed in zero vis, if you are familiar enough with it to know where in reference it is. This means within an arm-span length. If the other line (the one you're coming from on the way in) is marked with an arrow, then you also know "which way is out".

But if not I would think some contemplation of what happens if the vis gets zero-zeroed on you is called for...... while most such incidents are your fault, not all are - you can have perfect technique and yet someone else in the system upstream of you could cause a siltout that travels with the flow and blinds you at a bad time.....

[Jay]

Acutually this is about some things more fundamental.

Guiding a dive and dive planning.

What is the difference between being a guide and being an instructor?

If you are an instructor teaching a certified cave diver a specialty class such as DPV or stage , etc, the basic standards for the conduct of the class remain the same even though the diver is already certified. You don't get to "opt out" of running reels because the person is certified.

I do not think you have to be an instructor to guide a cave dive but there should be a clear understanding that you will follow all the tenants of safe cave diving.
Unfortunately, as a guide there are no standards or requirements, so you have to look at the dive plan.

If this story is true, it sounds like all agreed on a dive plan or did not discuss a dive plan.

If the guided divers agreed to this dive plan or did not make one, shame on them and shame on the guide for suggesting the plan or not making one.

It is also my opinion that if you want to retain your full voting privileges with the certifying agencies then you should be required to annually sign a safe cave diving practices document.